Forcing customers to reveal their private information is a very bad business model!

[Henry]

As a customer I do not care what "problem" Steam uses as an excuse to pretty much blackmail peoples private information out of them. Steam has no justifiable reason to force people into giving up their private information to them.

Region hopping is your problem, not that of your customers and you holding people's wallets hostage to get their addresses and phone numbers is disgusting.

How Steam pays it's taxes is not my problem and has nothing to do with my address or phone number or my money in my wallet.

No, you do not have any true, justifiable reason to do this. I haven't even heard about Steam region hopping up to this point but I will condemn such disgusting business practices and underhanded treatment of your long time loyal customers. Shame on you.

(Update for people that don't seem to get what the problem is)

1. Technical problems are not the customers problems. Fact is: Steam decided to demand private information from customers, there was no order from the government to Steam to enforce such a policy onto it's customers.

2. Steam deliberately kept this quiet (knowing that this is wrong and that people will hate it for good reason). Knowing that this is in their plans well in advance. I put money in my Steam wallet today and I can't use it. I would not have done that if I was informed beforehand.

3. 2015 or thereabouts articles about tax reforms don't mean squat, look at the calendar.

4. Asking for a specific region is very different from demanding direct and detailed, sensitive, private information by a private company, forcing it out of customers using above described underhanded tactics. Locking accounts to specific regions is a technical issue that can be solved by other means. But what if people provide the wrong region on purpose? But what if people give the wrong address and phone number on purpose?
If a specific region to go with an account is all you need then that's all you should be asking for. Again, preventing people from region hopping is Steam's technical problem, not mine.

5. Absolutely shameless and tactless treatment of long time loyal customers. I showed the Epic store a big middle finger when they showed up and decided to stick with Steam. Today I decided that my last purchase was my last purchase unless Steam understands that people's private information is none of their business.

[Nx Machina]

Kuro の投稿を引用：

brian9824 の投稿を引用：

None of that is true at all............

Yep they let users file individual taxes on their wallet money, requiring all their private financial information, like every other company in existance. Totally not shady at all.

And you assume people are going to be honest.

Not going to happen hence why most people pay tax via an automated system.

[Tito Shivan]

Kusa の投稿を引用：

And you assume people are going to be honest.

It's assumed given info to be honest up to the extent the store has to validate the info. (IE validating a given ID number to be a real one and not just a random string)

It's the work of the relevant governing agency to check, pursue and perform investigation on said data in the event a fraud is detected on a store transaction and the store to provide it when requested through due channels.

[Tokrar]

Tito Shivan の投稿を引用：

Kusa の投稿を引用：

And you assume people are going to be honest.

It's assumed given info to be honest up to the extent the store has to validate the info. (IE validating a given ID number to be a real one and not just a random string)

It's the work of the relevant governing agency to check, pursue and perform investigation on said data in the event a fraud is detected on a store transaction and the store to provide it when requested through due channels.

Ok, a phone number is going to do nothing when it comes to fighting tax evasion.

They can prove where you where at that time, so what? I can make a online purchase in my domestic country whilst being on holiday abroad. Doesn't tell you anything.

Ever had the tax administration ask for your phone number ?

[RiO]

Tito Shivan の投稿を引用：

It's the work of the relevant governing agency to check, pursue and perform investigation on said data in the event a fraud is detected on a store transaction and the store to provide it when requested through due channels.

Tax agencies actually only need a proper transaction ID. They have the authority to request all associated data related to the transaction with the payment provider; bank and credit card company and work from there.

So in that sense, the trader does not need that personal data to enable verification for taxation purposes.

In the EU under the MOSS scheme, there is no legal requirement to keep it on record either.
Full invoice data is only necessary if they choose to not file their VAT returns via MOSS and want to handle it themselves using the individual tailored tax rules of each individual member state.

For many member states, full invoice data on e-commerce is still not required according to their local tax laws. And for others, full invoice data is only required for business-to-business transactions or for transactions that cross borders.

(Interesting bit of information on the side: if Valve has an office in Germany, then afaik the transaction doesn't cross borders for Germans and Valve is required to pay taxes from its German subsidiary. Whey then were Germans among the first to be asked for their personal data during checkout?)

[Γαῖα]

Tito Shivan の投稿を引用：

Kusa の投稿を引用：

And you assume people are going to be honest.

It's assumed given info to be honest up to the extent the store has to validate the info. (IE validating a given ID number to be a real one and not just a random string)

It's the work of the relevant governing agency to check, pursue and perform investigation on said data in the event a fraud is detected on a store transaction and the store to provide it when requested through due channels.

That extent being they only know your account name, IP, area and country based on IP.
So basically steam have nothing meaning you can write down whatever you want as they have no way to verify it like they can with bank accounts and bank cards.

Is my government going to care, not really as all my receipts show im paying the correct amount of VAT.
I cant speak for the USA but the UK do not make or hold records of individual citizens VAT payments. They are only interested in businesses applying VAT to every sale to a british citizen full stop.
So if the IP says location UK, thats a rap, they dont care what country you come from as long as they get their cut and that includes not giving a damn about the country that didnt as its not their problem.
I can tell you also they will not waste a penny looking at all the rest of the 100'000's of other accounts steam hold as that costs time and money.
Every country chasing steams account holders IPs is simply not going to happen. My tax office does not want to speak to us brits so sure isnt going to sit there wasting time on a phone call from uganda i can tell. Our government is cutting back public services so it just wont happen meaning who do you think they are going chase every second. Thats right, steam who now have to take on more staff, start tracking all because a government says they arent doing enough.

Oh before i forget, you spoke of earlier about money laundering through steam. Please do continue as i would love to know how that is being done via game purchases. If you cant take anything out of steam (excluding the market as steam asks for no billing data), whats the point.

Even more embarrassing is if true would mean the majority of steam accounts dont count towards the total meaning steam would only have a fraction of actual real gamers. Even more funny is if true, steams about to take a serious financial hit on a permanent basis as no one launders in pennies and digits less than 5 Zeros.

Its markets and key retailers (where actual keys are sold) where steam and governments need to concentrate on and not game activation fronts like steam.

As for tax evasion, if steam cant figure out whose who then the jokes on them as its the business and not the steam account holder who take the hit when a tax office sends a demand as far as the UK is concerned.

[cSg|mc-Hotsauce]

Coming soon... https://twitter.com/aldenkroll/status/1222629464183468032

[Brian9824]

Again, its all about covering your butt. I mean do you honestly think the age-gate asking if someone is old enough before letting them access adult content is going to stop anyone?

Exact same thing for having them provide address. It's the best steam can do within the rules and protects them from being sued just like the age-gate.

[Tito Shivan]

cSg|mc-Hotsauce の投稿を引用：

Coming soon... https://twitter.com/aldenkroll/status/1222629464183468032

:qr:

Good to hear.

[RiO]

brian9824 の投稿を引用：

Again, its all about covering your butt. I mean do you honestly think the age-gate asking if someone is old enough before letting them access adult content is going to stop anyone?

Exact same thing for having them provide address. It's the best steam can do within the rules and protects them from being sued just like the age-gate.

An age gate which merely asks the user to enter their birth date actually does not qualify in the EU when you are legally required to verify a person's age. That's because the means you use to verify it have to be effective and relying on a minor to honestly enter their age is not effective.

So if CYOA is your game, it doesn't suffice. Asking the actual age is just as effective as merely asking: "are you 18 years or older? - [yes/no]"

Actually; that sort of also makes it illegal to ask for and process birth dates in such a way. Simply asking the latter question is just as effective as asking for the actual birth data (i.e. not effective at all) but requires less personal data. i.e. GDPR Article 5 regarding data minimization applies and you should use the means which requires the least personal data.

[Herald_UK]

When Steam first started, you had to give your name and address for the billing. Not even sure when this changed, only that it did and all of a sudden you didn't. Now you have to again. Don't see the problem seeing as you've probably already given every monkey and their dog your details over the web anyway. Your Govt ? Your bank ? eBay ? Amazon ? Wish ? Your local grocery delivery service. All while telling the world your life and opinions on decrepit Social Media ? Yet somehow Steam is all of a sudden the great Satan because of this ?

Seriously ? I'm sure you can find bigger and better things to bash Valve over. But this ain't it.

[Eagle_of_Fire]

Actually, I'm not stupid enough to give my personal info to everybody and their dogs. I don't provide an address and phone number whenever a stupid store ask me, and if they are really annoying about it I'll probably never go back to that store again. And if I can't actually make the transaction without it, I won't.

Not going to buy ANYTHING from Steam again unless this stupid thing revert. This is non negotiable.

[Brian9824]

Eagle_of_Fire の投稿を引用：

Actually, I'm not stupid enough to give my personal info to everybody and their dogs. I don't provide an address and phone number whenever a stupid store ask me, and if they are really annoying about it I'll probably never go back to that store again. And if I can't actually make the transaction without it, I won't.

Not going to buy ANYTHING from Steam again unless this stupid thing revert. This is non negotiable.

Guess its time to find new hobby. With the push for businesses to collect sales tax and/or VAT your going to see pretty much every online store start collecting it.

[Radene]

Herald_UK の投稿を引用：

When Steam first started, you had to give your name and address for the billing. Not even sure when this changed, only that it did and all of a sudden you didn't. Now you have to again. Don't see the problem seeing as you've probably already given every monkey and their dog your details over the web anyway. Your Govt ? Your bank ? eBay ? Amazon ? Wish ? Your local grocery delivery service. All while telling the world your life and opinions on decrepit Social Media ? Yet somehow Steam is all of a sudden the great Satan because of this ?

Seriously ? I'm sure you can find bigger and better things to bash Valve over. But this ain't it.

Ah yeah I remember back when the market came out, you needed to fill out a form to "uncap" how much you could participate, because over a certain threshold you'd be susceptible to US tax, so you'd either need to fill out your info so that the IRS could get to you, or also fill out your info to prove you were not subject to US taxation.

The US is pretty firm here; like when I opened a bank account in Switzerland (aka "the land of bank accounts"); I had to jump through the hoop of specifically filling out a form confirming that I don't owe taxes to USA and such.

So....yeah. The legislation might have been slow when it comes to the digital world, but once the USA sets sights on taxes, there's no getting away from it.

[RiO]

Radene の投稿を引用：

Herald_UK の投稿を引用：

When Steam first started, you had to give your name and address for the billing. Not even sure when this changed, only that it did and all of a sudden you didn't. Now you have to again. Don't see the problem seeing as you've probably already given every monkey and their dog your details over the web anyway. Your Govt ? Your bank ? eBay ? Amazon ? Wish ? Your local grocery delivery service. All while telling the world your life and opinions on decrepit Social Media ? Yet somehow Steam is all of a sudden the great Satan because of this ?

Seriously ? I'm sure you can find bigger and better things to bash Valve over. But this ain't it.

Ah yeah I remember back when the market came out, you needed to fill out a form to "uncap" how much you could participate, because over a certain threshold you'd be susceptible to US tax, so you'd either need to fill out your info so that the IRS could get to you, or also fill out your info to prove you were not subject to US taxation.

As a US citizen, you had to fill out legal name; address and SSN, yes. And Steam apparently recently reverted that, because after all that time, they figured out that -- oops! they weren't required to ask for that information after all.

Gives you a good frame of reference and offers you some perspective on the recent changes they pushed through "because it's required by all EU countries."


I would rather they point at and cite the exact law(s) that make(s) this necessary, rather than deliver a blanket statement that points at an entire EU directive and then without further substantiation, just calls it a day.

[Radene]

RiO の投稿を引用：

Radene の投稿を引用：

Ah yeah I remember back when the market came out, you needed to fill out a form to "uncap" how much you could participate, because over a certain threshold you'd be susceptible to US tax, so you'd either need to fill out your info so that the IRS could get to you, or also fill out your info to prove you were not subject to US taxation.

As a US citizen, you had to fill out legal name; address and SSN, yes. And Steam apparently recently reverted that, because after all that time, they figured out that -- oops! they weren't required to ask for that information after all.

Gives you a good frame of reference and offers you some perspective on the recent changes they pushed through "because they're required by <...>"

With how convoluted the US tax code is, tho, who can blame 'em.

Hell, I wouldn't have ever figured out "It's not needed" just by trying to get through that series of doorstoppers.