Loot Boxes deemed gambling and illegal in Belgium, Netherlands....go under intense scrutiny elsewhere!

[BlackSpawn]

Many of us have been aware for a long time of the fact that loot boxes, key crate RNG and similar microtransactions are essentially paid games of chance for items of money worth (or reasonable proxy) aka. gambling. These virtual slot machines are introduced into games as a money sink: One that makes the title esentially have no price ceiling nor cooldown between additional purchases or expenditures; One that preys especially on minors and on at risk and vulnerable individuals but ultimately on the population at large under the pretense of an "optional" addition to a title; One that is quite literally shoehorned into the otherwise functional title with a singular purpose. However, these systems are invariably designed in such a way as to goad the player into partaking in the system (either via drops, market, ingame store, key crate gambling, paid mods via community made cosmetics, etc.) and use the game itself as a neverending loop of marketing by exposing the customer to such items and monetization. The customer makes him/herself suggestible to such conditioning and manipulation by surrendering to the virtual world that is supposed to be an inocuous, fun and enjoyable experience rather than a carefully designed and thinly veiled virtual casino / online marketplace inside a game.

WELL....

FINALLY, the gaming population at large has made their voices heard about these anticonsumer, predatory practices! After the fallout from EA's poorly conceived implementation of paid to win loot boxes tied to game progression on Star Wars Battlefront 2, a number of countries and governmental bodies / gambling authorities all over the world have begun to pay notice to said practice...and some are acting!
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/star-wars-battlefront-2s-loot-box-controversy-expl/1100-6455155/

Hawaii introduced several loot box related bills:
https://www.vg247.com/2018/02/13/hawaii-loot-boxes-bills/

Netherlands was the first country to classify certain loot boxes as gambling, and illegal. They gave video game publishers a timeline to REMOVE illegal loot boxes by mid June 2018:
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-04-19-the-netherlands-declares-some-loot-boxes-are-gambling

Belgium soon followed and declared that the penalty would be a fine AND potentially prison for those that violate the law:
https://screenrant.com/loot-boxes-illegal-belgium-netherlands/
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43906306

UK Gambling Authority and the US overall have lagged behind in their consideration of loot boxes as gambling. Only the Washington Gambling Commission gave Valve a notice about them, and Valve responded by disabling external websites that used Steam API to gamble with Steam Marketables but stopped at that.
https://www.polygon.com/2016/10/5/13176244/washington-gambling-commission-demands-end-to-valve-cs-go-skin
https://www.polygon.com/2016/10/18/13318326/valve-fires-back-at-washington-state-gambling-commission-over-cs-go-betting

A case raised in US courts where Valve was named in the suit related to "illegal gambling" in CSGO was thrown out of court / did not proceed.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/darrenheitner/2017/04/04/illegal-gambling-case-concerning-csgo-is-kicked-out-of-court/#619833221495

Additional european countries are scrutinizing loot boxes and predatory monetization of the gambling type in games (Of note, the de facto European Union capital is located in Brussels, Belgium) and Netherland's Gaming Authority stated their interest in loot box legislation / regulation throughout the European Union member states.

Summary of attempts at loot box legislation in USA, including the latest bill introduced in Minnesota on 4/24/2018.
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=04c83f73-6a42-43ec-baf3-dd30b7094ab0
Loot box bill introduced in Minnesota legislature: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bills/text.php?number=HF4460&version=0&session=ls90&session_year=2018&session_number=0


Its a good day where, finally, legislations around the world are seeing loot boxes for what they really are. What took so long!? If one thing is clear from all of this, is that developers, publishers and storefronts cannot be trusted to have a fair, conscientous and morally minded limit with regards to predatory monetization in their games...even if they are PAID and not F2P.

Videos discussing the matter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNiVSj9uzTw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JygNQ_n22U

Relevant Opinion Article (2/2018):
https://venturebeat.com/2018/02/20/loot-boxes-should-face-gambling-regulation/

Official Statement Belgian Gaming Commission:
https://www.koengeens.be/fr/news/2018/04/25/loot-boxen-in-drie-videogames-in-strijd-met-kansspelwetgeving
Google english translation: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=https://www.koengeens.be/news/2018/04/25/loot-boxen-in-drie-videogames-in-strijd-met-kansspelwetgeving&prev=search

Official Statement Dutch Gaming Authority:
https://www.kansspelautoriteit.nl/publish/library/6/press_release_loot_boxes_19_april_2018_-_en.pdf

[dont add me]

Автор сообщения: Gekkibi

Автор сообщения: Lamont

Perhaps we should have a seperate thread on that subject? As interesting as it is, it's not exactly on topic here, just saying. But I do agree it is as equally as greasy and as dishonest as lootbox gambling and is related.

:accat:

Agreed, it's off-topic. CS-GO related "gambling" sites are not gambling, and they have nothing to do with loot boxes.

I strongly disagree. Some of them are betting sites (betting is gambling), some of them are designed to be clones of the lootbox system, and some of them are games of chance (usually rigged) like a lottery or a raffle for example. That's all gambling.

[Lamont]

Автор сообщения: Toast

Автор сообщения: Gekkibi

Agreed, it's off-topic. CS-GO related "gambling" sites are not gambling, and they have nothing to do with loot boxes.

I strongly disagree. Some of them are betting sites (betting is gambling), some of them are designed to be clones of the lootbox system, and some of them are games of chance (usually rigged) like a lottery or a raffle for example. That's all gambling.

That's fine then, that's your opinion after all, I'm not disputing whether it's gambling though, I was just raising the concern that this might be worthy of a thread of its own. I do also agree it is directly tied to lootbox gambling too of course.

[Dimebag]

As the legislation progresses it will inevitably spread out to address site like those . I can see why so many on this site would be up in arms as now the law is catching up with the electronic medium their revenue streams are threatened ...... good .

All other forms of gambling have to adhere to regulation and even the skin sites will be looked at in time .

Автор сообщения: May90

Well, those sites are scam, obviously. Only an entity being scam has nothing to do with gambling; scam can be about anything. Not every scam is a gambling system, and not every gambling system is scam.

Good to see you admit there is an issue . If the "industry" is prone to scams then the "industry" has no one else to blame but themselves for drawing the attention of the law through malpractice. Laws cover nearly every aspect of trade and this is one area that needs to be stomped on .

[May90]

You don't need to quote my post if you can't even understand its contents. The issue is illegal financial practices, which applies equally to all industries. Gambling / loot boxes / etc. are not issues, they are just some of the trillions tools that can be used, among other things, for those practices.

[Lamont]

Автор сообщения: NathanD

As the legislation progresses it will inevitably spread out to address site like those . I can see why so many on this site would be up in arms as now the law is catching up with the electronic medium their revenue streams are threatened ...... good .

All other forms of gambling have to adhere to regulation and even the skin sites will be looked at in time .

Автор сообщения: May90

Well, those sites are scam, obviously. Only an entity being scam has nothing to do with gambling; scam can be about anything. Not every scam is a gambling system, and not every gambling system is scam.

Good to see you admit there is an issue . If the "industry" is prone to scams then the "industry" has no one else to blame but themselves for drawing the attention of the law through malpractice. Laws cover nearly every aspect of trade and this is one area that needs to be stomped on .

Well said NathanD, this gets an Harrumph of agreement from me, I don't mind business making money, but sometimes the means employed are the problem and the disgusting pernicious, insidious and predatory lootbox gambling schemes and the associated scams in our videogames are certainly one of them. And it's good to see that the Law in certain countries have awakend to this fact and others are rapidly catching on too.

[Dimebag]

Автор сообщения: May90

You don't need to quote my post if you can't even understand its contents.

I understand just fine .

Автор сообщения: May90

The issue is illegal financial practices, which applies equally to all industries.

And all industries have either voluntary or legislated rules that they must abide by ... well done on observing the most basic principle of trade .

Автор сообщения: May90

Gambling / loot boxes / etc. are not issues, they are just some of the trillions tools that can be used, among other things, for those practices.

Gambling is an industry just as game development or bricklaying is . Obviously someone thinks it's enough of an issue to look at creating laws to govern it .

Like I stated before and you seem to have a hard to grasping is the laws are CHANGING meaning your defence is ultimately null and void .

[GREEK117]

Okay, full disclosure: When I saw that this has up to 32 pages, I skipped straight to the reply box.

HOWEVER: I've been keeping tabs on the lootbox issue in recent months. Ever since the BS that EA pulled with BF2.

All I can say is that the fact that several nations have made final deliberations to start the process of forcing developers to discontinue loot boxes in there respective nations is a good thing. Once one domino falls, a whole bunch of others will fall in line too. Since the US & multiple nations within the EU have extradition treaties, its actually possible for project leaders or CEO's of some of the worst offenders of the loot box practice (EA and Ubisoft) to face actual incarceration. Not just an expensive international lawsuit. And I doubt that the CEO's of these companies have the spine to handle multiple back-to-back court hearings from nations looking to put them behind bars. Chances are, they will relent and give up on the practice. Best to make some money on microtransactions than use a practice that comes with some heavy baggage

Once more nations in the EU decide to jump aboard the loot box ban train, its gonna be really hard for the US to ignore the issue. ESPECIALLY since Hawaii tried to pass laws that would put an end to this disgusting practice. And I for one can't wait to see which US State decides to pick up the task to get the US Gaming Commission to recognize loot boxes as illegal gambling.

Also, I really didn't want to see things go this far. I wanted the industry to regulate itself. But if its really gonna take government to step in and cut out all this BS, than I'm rooting for Big Brother on this one.

[Lamont]

Автор сообщения: GREEK117

Okay, full disclosure: When I saw that this has up to 32 pages, I skipped straight to the reply box.

HOWEVER: I've been keeping tabs on the lootbox issue in recent months. Ever since the BS that EA pulled with BF2.

All I can say is that the fact that several nations have made final deliberations to start the process of forcing developers to discontinue loot boxes in there respective nations is a good thing. Once one domino falls, a whole bunch of others will fall in line too. Since the US & multiple nations within the EU have extradition treaties, its actually possible for project leaders or CEO's of some of the worst offenders of the loot box practice (EA and Ubisoft) to face actual incarceration. Not just an expensive international lawsuit. And I doubt that the CEO's of these companies have the spine to handle multiple back-to-back court hearings from nations looking to put them behind bars. Chances are, they will relent and give up on the practice. Best to make some money on microtransactions than use a practice that comes with some heavy baggage

Once more nations in the EU decide to jump aboard the loot box ban train, its gonna be really hard for the US to ignore the issue. ESPECIALLY since Hawaii tried to pass laws that would put an end to this disgusting practice. And I for one can't wait to see which US State decides to pick up the task to get the US Gaming Commission to recognize loot boxes as illegal gambling.

Also, I really didn't want to see things go this far. I wanted the industry to regulate itself. But if its really gonna take government to step in and cut out all this BS, than I'm rooting for Big Brother on this one.

Looks like Minnesota has the latest example in the USA...
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=04c83f73-6a42-43ec-baf3-dd30b7094ab0

The Hawaiian example went over time and was abandoned, that's not to say it can't be tried all over again though.

And I heartily agree with you on the 'Big Brother' take on this, as much as I distrust and for the greater part dislike all politicians, you know something really stinks when 'these people' have to intervene and tell the unsrupulously greedy and morally bankrupt that they are taking things too far and put a stop to it, that for me screams volumes, don't you agree?

[GREEK117]

Автор сообщения: Lamont

Автор сообщения: GREEK117

Okay, full disclosure: When I saw that this has up to 32 pages, I skipped straight to the reply box.

HOWEVER: I've been keeping tabs on the lootbox issue in recent months. Ever since the BS that EA pulled with BF2.

All I can say is that the fact that several nations have made final deliberations to start the process of forcing developers to discontinue loot boxes in there respective nations is a good thing. Once one domino falls, a whole bunch of others will fall in line too. Since the US & multiple nations within the EU have extradition treaties, its actually possible for project leaders or CEO's of some of the worst offenders of the loot box practice (EA and Ubisoft) to face actual incarceration. Not just an expensive international lawsuit. And I doubt that the CEO's of these companies have the spine to handle multiple back-to-back court hearings from nations looking to put them behind bars. Chances are, they will relent and give up on the practice. Best to make some money on microtransactions than use a practice that comes with some heavy baggage

Once more nations in the EU decide to jump aboard the loot box ban train, its gonna be really hard for the US to ignore the issue. ESPECIALLY since Hawaii tried to pass laws that would put an end to this disgusting practice. And I for one can't wait to see which US State decides to pick up the task to get the US Gaming Commission to recognize loot boxes as illegal gambling.

Also, I really didn't want to see things go this far. I wanted the industry to regulate itself. But if its really gonna take government to step in and cut out all this BS, than I'm rooting for Big Brother on this one.

Looks like Minnesota has the latest example in the USA...
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=04c83f73-6a42-43ec-baf3-dd30b7094ab0

The Hawaiin example went over time and was abandoned, that's not to say it can't be tried all over again though.

And I heartily agree with you on the 'Big Brother' take on this, as much as I distrust and for the greater part dislike all politicians, you know something really stinks when 'these people' have to intervene and tell the unsrupulously greedy and morally bankrupt that they are taking things too far and put a stop to it, that for me screams volumes, don't you agree? :comic:

:accat:

The enemy of my enemy is just an enemy whose unintentionally saving me time and resources to deal with them myself

[Bergman]

Everything is illegal in Belgium and the Netherlands except drugs.(I pay´d once a fine for my pocketknife)

[SpicyPepperoni]

I feel like a very bad chain of events will follow after this.

[Radene]

Автор сообщения: SpicyPepperoni

I feel like a very bad chain of events will follow after this.

We've been through this - yes, the skies will rain fire, and the rivers will run red with blood. But some of us want the Armageddon, you know.

[Lamont]

Автор сообщения: Radene

Автор сообщения: SpicyPepperoni

I feel like a very bad chain of events will follow after this.

We've been through this - yes, the skies will rain fire, and the rivers will run red with blood. But some of us want the Armageddon, you know.

I think you are exaggerating a little there with the 'biblical epic' style predictions I do believe that lootbox gambling is in very real danger of being eradicated from our videogames though and not before time too in my opinion, this pernicious, insidous, predatory, horrid and sordid racket has been a blight of gaming for far too long as it is.

[Dirty Dan]

Автор сообщения: Lamont

Автор сообщения: GREEK117

Okay, full disclosure: When I saw that this has up to 32 pages, I skipped straight to the reply box.

HOWEVER: I've been keeping tabs on the lootbox issue in recent months. Ever since the BS that EA pulled with BF2.

All I can say is that the fact that several nations have made final deliberations to start the process of forcing developers to discontinue loot boxes in there respective nations is a good thing. Once one domino falls, a whole bunch of others will fall in line too. Since the US & multiple nations within the EU have extradition treaties, its actually possible for project leaders or CEO's of some of the worst offenders of the loot box practice (EA and Ubisoft) to face actual incarceration. Not just an expensive international lawsuit. And I doubt that the CEO's of these companies have the spine to handle multiple back-to-back court hearings from nations looking to put them behind bars. Chances are, they will relent and give up on the practice. Best to make some money on microtransactions than use a practice that comes with some heavy baggage

Once more nations in the EU decide to jump aboard the loot box ban train, its gonna be really hard for the US to ignore the issue. ESPECIALLY since Hawaii tried to pass laws that would put an end to this disgusting practice. And I for one can't wait to see which US State decides to pick up the task to get the US Gaming Commission to recognize loot boxes as illegal gambling.

Also, I really didn't want to see things go this far. I wanted the industry to regulate itself. But if its really gonna take government to step in and cut out all this BS, than I'm rooting for Big Brother on this one.

Looks like Minnesota has the latest example in the USA...
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=04c83f73-6a42-43ec-baf3-dd30b7094ab0

The Hawaiian example went over time and was abandoned, that's not to say it can't be tried all over again though.

And I heartily agree with you on the 'Big Brother' take on this, as much as I distrust and for the greater part dislike all politicians, you know something really stinks when 'these people' have to intervene and tell the unsrupulously greedy and morally bankrupt that they are taking things too far and put a stop to it, that for me screams volumes, don't you agree? :comic:

:accat:

Minnesota hard on gambling? Enough with the jokes, we got one of the youngest ages to allow gambling(in casinos and out) in the whole union.

Ultimately, as I think I’ve already said in the forum, I’d rather not have Big Brother here. I’d say it’s better that kids learn about how addictive and destructive gambling can be when they are buying 7 dollar CS:GO cases and keys rather than hundreds of dollars. Ultimately, if the kids who were above 14 years old were doing chores/had jobs and were making their own money, this wouldn’t be as much of a problem.

If we accept that they must stop gambling that is basically the same as buying Pokémon cards, why can’t they also stop games with Nazis in them like Germany, or other censorships that Europeans do?

[Sa†o]

Автор сообщения: Dirty Dan

Автор сообщения: Lamont

Looks like Minnesota has the latest example in the USA...
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=04c83f73-6a42-43ec-baf3-dd30b7094ab0

The Hawaiian example went over time and was abandoned, that's not to say it can't be tried all over again though.

And I heartily agree with you on the 'Big Brother' take on this, as much as I distrust and for the greater part dislike all politicians, you know something really stinks when 'these people' have to intervene and tell the unsrupulously greedy and morally bankrupt that they are taking things too far and put a stop to it, that for me screams volumes, don't you agree? :comic:

:accat:

Minnesota hard on gambling:zombo:? Enough with the jokes, we got one of the youngest ages to allow gambling(in casinos and out) in the whole union.

Ultimately, as I think I’ve already said in the forum, I’d rather not have Big Brother here. I’d say it’s better that kids learn about how addictive and destructive gambling can be when they are buying 7 dollar CS:GO cases and keys rather than hundreds of dollars. Ultimately, if the kids who were above 14 years old were doing chores/had jobs and were making their own money, this wouldn’t be as much of a problem.

If we accept that they must stop gambling that is basically the same as buying Pokémon cards, why can’t they also stop games with Nazis in them like Germany, or other censorships that Europeans do?

Wolfenstein was not censored in Europe, or are you reffering to some censorship I'm unaware of?

No one said stop gambling, don't know where you got that from.
It's very simple, adhere to the laws and you will be fine.

Want gambling games? Not a problem, follow the laws of:
Age restriction, authentication, bank clearance, taxation for gambling, measures and regulations to repel money laundry and the list goes on.
What's the problem? I really don't see the issue here.

Gambling falls under the same cathegory as:
Sex, alcohol, military conscription, porn, job regulations (child labour age restrictions)
And the list goes on. You know, the list that makes us a civilized society.