valve please stop the chase over visual novels and oriental games

76561188078797539 2018年6月3日 9時54分

Bunnyz の投稿を引用：
The simple truth is that there is no easy way to have age verification on a system like steam that spans across so many contries all having different id systems - and also credit cards and steam cards can simply be used by minors anyway. The age gating that steam provides is adequate as well as they also have family settings.

One could argue whether or not such a system could be bypassed, but notice that Steam already differentiates users based on supposed nationality (regional pricing), a minor cannot get a credit card without adult's approval (though pre-paid credit cards might be an issue here, not sure if they can be legally sold to minors anywhere), and Steam account itself requires adult supervision to set up for those truly in moral danger from sexuality (Steam might simply require adult consent for setting up account for anybody under 18 just to simplify things).

Age check is not meant to be an impassable wall. As you said, the main responsibility for ensuring a kid does not access content their parents don't want is on parents. The only thing Steam needs to do is implement "good enough" system.

Spawk の投稿を引用：
They're trying to get rid of or clean up a subgenre of games that has become synonymous with shovelware and which is just one step away from being porn, often with blatantly underage looking characters to boot.

Then stop buying them, make sure your friends never buy them, and let market bias do the work.

But, the elephant in the room is that some people do enjoy them, and will keep purchasing enough of them to warrant their presence on Steam.

So your argument boils down to "I don't like them, therefore you should not be able to play them."

I DGAF about Visual Novels. I'd love if they had their own sub-store, and be separated from what I consider "games" so I have that much less crap to browse through trying to keep informed of released games.

But I'm still going to call BS on their complete removal.

Spawk の投稿を引用：
I wonder what kind of person would be against a company cracking down on shovelware and pornographic material that often depicts very young characters.

The kind of person that understand the applicability of meaning behind "First they came..."[en.wikipedia.org] and dangers of censorship.

Especially since "depicts very young characters" is BS in itself, and have long been gone over in this thread. Also, Australia's "young-looking" porn ban, which has nothing to do with age and everything with aesthetics/body phenotype.

The nameless Commander の投稿を引用：
Nabokov's "Lolita" is not and was never a forbidden book, at least to my knowledge, so I'm with you.

It was banned in several Western countries on release. I think it's still on ban list of some more... religious... countries (think Middle East or SE Asia), but can't find any information on it outright.

Anyway, Huxley's Brave New World contains mention of literal child sex, an activity strongly encouraged by the described government (orgy-porgy!). Also got a ban at some point in time for it. Does not change the fact that it is among the most notable titles I've ever read, and should absolutely not be either "modified" nor banned. If anything, I'd advocate making it a mandatory reading, except I know that's the best way to kill any interest in a title by the targetted audience.

kaibarnard の投稿を引用：
Do we defend these games? I mean there is a line, or is there not? What crosses the line...I am fine with steam saying no to things

If it's not illegal, Steam should carry it. Period.

Make a separate "Adult Only" section to avoid poor underage Jimmy from looking on some digital T&A (he'll just go hit some hardcore porn site anyway), if that's what it takes, but don't try to be morality police.

Steam showed clearly they don't care about "shovelware" titles by flooding their store with idiotic high-school programming projects (not to mention blatant cash-grab titles), so any arguments from "quality control" point of view are in direct contradiction to what Steam is doing, anyway.

Yeah, it's that simple.

最近の変更は76561188078797539が行いました; 2018年6月3日 9時57分

#2476

MADanger 2018年6月3日 10時02分

The smartest thing to do is allow ALL games no matter what they are.

#2477

Malamasala 2018年6月3日 10時04分

The hypocrism in the west is more about how we pity oppressed women in arabic cultures, but condemn drawings for being immoral and not clothed enough. If a girl dared to protest in a bikini in saudi-arabia, we'd cheer. If she was inside a game, we'd request a ban.

At some point we should realize that men and women can dress however they want, and that goes double for cartoons as they don't need to follow real life laws.

#2478

76561188078797539 2018年6月3日 10時06分

Mad Ass Danger の投稿を引用：
The smartest thing to do is allow ALL games no matter what they are.

I can understand Steam's desire to pretend to be a "family friendly" store (though, as others mentioned - Witcher, Conan, GTA, any realistic shooter...).

But they are targetting specific style of games, and not only that, they are targetting titles because they carry, completely outside of Steam, "uncensor" patches.

That last part is pretty ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ glaring overreach on Steam's part. If Steam can't be bothered to remove from their store cash-grabs even long after they stop being offiially supported, they have absolutely no right to go and dump a game because the studio that made it offers some smut patches to it on other sites.

Steam would be absolutely within its right to remove any mention of such patches from either forum posts or official announcements (and then should be able to issue a warning to a party making such, with potential of ban from Steam store altogether if it continues), but not remove the title outright.

That's the major problem that I have with the situation right now. It's blatantly biased targeting.

Malamasala の投稿を引用：
The hypocrism in the west is more about how we pity oppressed women in arabic cultures, but condemn drawings for being immoral and not clothed enough.

Or just outright destroy lives by not only putting people in jail for having said "drawings," but also putting them on a "special list" that severely limits what they can do even after serving the time.

Unless they are wealthy/powerful enough, then they can diddle literal real little kids and still run for Congress or whatnot. Suddenly the outrage is gone.

最近の変更は76561188078797539が行いました; 2018年6月3日 10時09分

#2479

The nameless Gamer 2018年6月3日 10時09分

Sheepify の投稿を引用：
Mad Ass Danger の投稿を引用：
The smartest thing to do is allow ALL games no matter what they are.
I can understand Steam's desire to pretend to be a "family friendly" store (though, as others mentioned - Witcher, Conan, GTA, any realistic shooter...).

But they are targetting specific style of games, and not only that, they are targetting titles because they carry, completely outside of Steam, "uncensor" patches.

That last part is pretty ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ glaring overreach on Steam's part. If Steam can't be bothered to remove from their store cash-grabs even long after they stop being offiially supported, they have absolutely no right to go and dump a game because the studio that made it offers some smut patches to it on other sites.

Steam would be absolutely within its right to remove any mention of such patches from either forum posts or official announcements (and then should be able to issue a warning to a party making such, with potential of ban from Steam store altogether if it continues), but not remove the title outright.

That's the major problem that I have with the situation right now. It's blatantly biased targeting.

If they want to be family-friendly, games like Call of Duty, GTA, Postal, Manhunt, Hatred and the like don't belong on the platform either, unless warfare, murder, torture, crime and amok-runs are perfectly suitable for children. Which they in any normal society should NOT be.

#2480

76561188078797539 2018年6月3日 10時13分

The nameless Commander の投稿を引用：
If they want to be family-friendly, games like Call of Duty, GTA, Postal, Manhunt, Hatred and the like don't belong on the platform either, unless warfare, murder, torture, crime and amok-runs are perfectly suitable for children. Which they in any normal society should NOT be.

Basically. It's something nobody even marginally objective would argue with.

FFS, if you think about it, even the worst "dating simulator" is hardly comparable to a game where you gleefully run around massacring people. I'm as likely to blow up against "game violence promotes real violence" as anybody clued in, but at least there is an actual sociopathic activity.

For all I know, most (if not all) "dating simulators" are based around consent one way or another, and definitely cannot have characters of age illegal within specific jurisdiction. Meaning, no problem outside of people pushing their own view of "morality."

#2481

luckyshot5135 2018年6月3日 10時16分

Oh and for all those saying the lolis in the games are underaged first it's a drawing second art style, third some people are quite fond of the cute lil characters. Moe at this point has become it's whole own genre some of it is just straight up cuteness some of it is eroticism, but who is it to come in and say oh it's harmless drawing but I dislike it cause it bothers me morally so you shouldn't be allowed to look at it.

最近の変更はluckyshot5135が行いました; 2018年6月3日 10時16分

#2482

Seraphita 2018年6月3日 10時19分

Lolis are the most adorable things ever... Cute little goddesses. If people want to complain to me for it, they can go away. It's anime so it's fine to me. Completely different of "child porn" Jeez. :P

#2483

luckyshot5135 2018年6月3日 10時21分

Zero の投稿を引用：
Lolis are the most adorable things ever... Cute little goddesses. If people want to complain to me for it, they can go away. It's anime so it's fine to me. Completely different of "child porn" Jeez. :P

Yea and there are plenty of lolis who are just cute as all hell to be cute, like emi from katawa shoujo (a game that legit changed my views on disabled people) to be 100% honest yea I like lolis for more reasons than they're just cute does that mean i'm going to go out and hurt a child oh hell no thats disgusting.

#2484

76561188078797539 2018年6月3日 10時22分

luckyshot5135 の投稿を引用：
third some people are quite fond of the cute lil characters.

That's not exactly an argument in favor there, mate.

"Some people are quite fond of cute lil' kids..."

I get what you're trying to say, but the phrasing is just adding fuel to the other camp's rage-engine. "He's promoting child porn! Raargh!"

luckyshot5135 の投稿を引用：
Moe at this point has become it's whole own genre some of it is just straight up cuteness some of it is eroticism, but who is it to come in and say oh it's harmless drawing but I dislike it cause it bothers me morally so you shouldn't be allowed to look at it.

That's the whole problem. If you do intentionally present a character as severely underage (and, in this case, even pre-pubescent), that's straight out illegal. We can have an argument on whether the prohibition is logical or not, but it doesn't make such a game legal in the meantime.

Speaking as the unashamed owner of Moekuri. Not that I care much for the "cutsey" graphics, but the tactical gameplay is awesome:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/529160/

#2485

Seraphita 2018年6月3日 10時25分

luckyshot5135 の投稿を引用：
Yea and there are plenty of lolis who are just cute as all hell to be cute, like emi from katawa shoujo (a game that legit changed my views on disabled people) to be 100% honest yea I like lolis for more reasons than they're just cute does that mean i'm going to go out and hurt a child oh hell no thats disgusting.

Yeeeah. I like lolis from multiple perspectives and I'd never think about harming a child in real life because wtf...? I know some people are insane but I'm not one of those. The worst I'll go about is "Hey. they're cute". bam, end of it. Child molesters are just... ugh. I can't blame anime for that...

Either you're crazy to start with or you're not. Either you die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain. But seriously... People are way too offended by games and animes.

Sheepify の投稿を引用：
"Some people are quite fond of cute lil' kids..."

Cute little CHARACTERS. They didn't say kids. BIG difference between anime and child porn.

最近の変更はSeraphitaが行いました; 2018年6月3日 10時27分

#2486

luckyshot5135 2018年6月3日 10時27分

Sheepify の投稿を引用：
luckyshot5135 の投稿を引用：
third some people are quite fond of the cute lil characters.
That's not exactly an argument in favor there, mate.

"Some people are quite fond of cute lil' kids..."

I get what you're trying to say, but the phrasing is just adding fuel to the other camp's rage-engine. "He's promoting child porn! Raargh!"

luckyshot5135 の投稿を引用：
Moe at this point has become it's whole own genre some of it is just straight up cuteness some of it is eroticism, but who is it to come in and say oh it's harmless drawing but I dislike it cause it bothers me morally so you shouldn't be allowed to look at it.
That's the whole problem. If you do intentionally present a character as severely underage (and, in this case, even pre-pubescent), that's straight out illegal. We can have an argument on whether the prohibition is logical or not, but it doesn't make such a game legal in the meantime.

Speaking as the unashamed owner of Moekuri. Not that I care much for the "cutsey" graphics, but the tactical gameplay is awesome:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/529160/

Actually legally games with lolis in it even erotic games are completely legal as it doesn't cross the legal barrier in the us, and valve is us based also another way to get around which is what places like fakku have done is to put a "all characters depicted in this work of fiction are 18+ even if specifically said otherwise"

最近の変更はluckyshot5135が行いました; 2018年6月3日 10時28分

#2487

76561188078797539 2018年6月3日 10時45分

Zero の投稿を引用：
Actually legally games with lolis in it even erotic games are completely legal as it doesn't cross the legal barrier in the us and valve is us based

It does if the character is presented as being underage:

https://www.wired.com/2010/02/obscene-us-manga-collector-jailed-6-months/

Also, just because Steam (or Valve) are "US-based" does not exclude them from having to obey local laws.

Zero の投稿を引用：
also another way to get around which is what places like fakku have done is to put a "all characters depicted in this work of fiction are 18+ even if specifically said otherwise"

Yeah, except... you know. "Morality police."

It should end the whole discussion. It clearly does not. So it would behoove not to add fuel to the fire by making statements that can be easily misrepresented, is all I'm saying.

#2488

Malamasala 2018年6月3日 10時47分

luckyshot5135 の投稿を引用：
Actually legally games with lolis in it even erotic games are completely legal as it doesn't cross the legal barrier in the us, and valve is us based also another way to get around which is what places like fakku have done is to put a "all characters depicted in this work of fiction are 18+ even if specifically said otherwise"

It is practically legal in the whole world with exceptions of Canada and Australia. Because all these countries in general has a clause stating that if the game can be made all-ages and put on Steam, it has literary value and is not porn.

Of course if you can't remove the porn and have any game left, it would be illegal in many countries. But those would never arrive to Steam anyway.

And most companies should really pay more attention to this. Because it means complaints from anyone not in Canada or Australia is just trolling when they say it is illegal. Especially as they usually complain about the all-ages version.

#2489

luckyshot5135 2018年6月3日 10時48分

Malamasala の投稿を引用：
luckyshot5135 の投稿を引用：
Actually legally games with lolis in it even erotic games are completely legal as it doesn't cross the legal barrier in the us, and valve is us based also another way to get around which is what places like fakku have done is to put a "all characters depicted in this work of fiction are 18+ even if specifically said otherwise"

It is practically legal in the whole world with exceptions of Canada and Australia. Because all these countries in general has a clause stating that if the game can be made all-ages and put on Steam, it has literary value and is not porn.

Of course if you can't remove the porn and have any game left, it would be illegal in many countries. But those would never arrive to Steam anyway.

And most companies should really pay more attention to this. Because it means complaints from anyone not in Canada or Australia is just trolling when they say it is illegal. Especially as they usually complain about the all-ages version.

I have friends from australia who like lolis even more than me and they straight up ignore the laws cause they're stupid, if i'm adding fuel to the fire so be it what is so wrong about liking one thing there are much worse things to like for isntacne gore/snuff, which is almost as popular and much much worse.

#2490

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