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Quadsword 2019 年 7 月 5 日 下午 7:47
Epic is starting to worry me
Despite massive backlash from their practices, Epic hasn’t let up even slightly. They have financial backing from Disney and Tencent, two of the largest corporations in the world, and a massive cash flow from Fortnite and unreal engine, the former being the most popular game in the world and the latter being the most popular commercial game engine in the world.

I feel like no amount of consumer backlash will stop them getting the monopoly they obviously want. They can just keep throwing money around until they control the entire games industry. I miss the days before mega corporations entered this industry.
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McGillicutti 2019 年 8 月 2 日 上午 3:33 
引用自 Count_Dandyman
引用自 Eisberg
The way Epic handles higher fees is only one way to do it, not a prefered way imo. There is another way to handle them.

Valve can drop down to 12-15% across the board and have it cover up to 6% transaction fees. For any remaning % of transaction fee, Valve adds it to their cut. Lets say there is 3% leftover in a transaction, so they add the 3% to that 12-15% they take for that transaction, for simplicity lets go with 15% for the remaining of my post, so they add 3% to the 15%, so 18% is what Valve would take for that transaction

By doing this, it would be where vast majority of the revenue would be at 15% revenue take, 85% for the dev/pubs, and then for the minority amount of revenue it would be between 70% to 85% for the dev/pub, effectively making it so that dev/pubs make more money over all, while not putting the extra charges onto the customers.
So your saying Valve should do something Epic were asked to do by the devs of the games they are selling and refused to. So seeing as you think that system is such a good way to handle it what is your response to Tims flat out refusal to do it?

Hell if the amount of transactions involved was such a tiny fraction like you are trying to claim you could easily just eat those costs as an insignificant expense.

Reality: He has no clue what he's speaking of.

If he's look he'd find that some countries, their banks are so awful that a foreign transaction comes with a delay of up to 72 hours and fees in excess of 400% of the price of the item. I wish I had the link but it was to a forum speaking to the Epic Exclusives and a few posts were people in foreign countries complaining over the fact that the 5 dollar game they were going to buy from Epic, was going to cost over 50 dollars after all the fees were tacked on for their foreign transaction, and it was Epic charging them for the conversion.

The open ended claim of "there is another way to handle them" explains nothing too.

Steam handles most of them the best way it can. Steam converts their currency (meaning it puts out cash that it can't then use) in value that's placed on the Steam Wallet Cards. Then thre's the 1.50 centish to make the cards. Then there's losing 10-20% of the transaction cost to the retailer selling the cards. And this inventory of cards sits on shelves doing nothing until someone buys it. That's money that could be invested and making a percentage.

Now I am sure Steam, like anyone, is using some financial measures so it's an amount of credit and minimizing how much they're losing along the way but, that percentage to the retailer isn't so flexible. Yet Steam gives us 100% of what we put down on the card as credit to our account. This luxury of equal treatment of customers is anywhere the Steam Wallet Cards are locally sold. There is no way a 12/88 split can do what Steam has done to help facilitate transactions for Gamers to pay Publishers, Developers, and Steam for the games they want to play worldwide.

There is also absolutely no truth that the money Steam spends on things like ProtonDB and Steam VR, as well as this "grant" money it gives away to customers in the Steam Wallet Cards, is affordable according to the formula posed, a completely uninformed formula that appears to lack any knowledge whatsoever of the reality of many places in the world that have Internet and Gamers but also have crooked governments and crooked economies, especially when it comes to foreign transactions. There's also the controlling governments like the Communist Chinese Government who exacerbate this cost of transaction negative effect on foreign games (games outside their country). The Chinese government has imposed/requires in-game penalties to loot and other items gained if the player is gaming passed a certain duration of time gaming, an amount of time the government sets as the maximum time one can game, and all done to discourage the gamer from gaming longer than that period of time.

This is the reality, the variety of intrinsic depths and meanings, of what is being said about Epic's, essentially, "price gouging" foreign buyers of games. Imagine what happens if some political activist in some of these countries gets wind of this.... And all because Sweeney never pulled his head out of the hindquarters of his narcissism and computer coding long enough to learn how society, people, nations, and international commerce actually works. I'd explain more but I don't want to help Epic figure out what literally 100s of thousands of businesses carrying on transactions worldwide every day understand. It's not difficult at all but will never be done by those CEOs busy arranging PR stunts with "@Forumposter2" to promote this or that agenda item instead of learning what everyone else in that arena of international business & finance knows and clearly Sweeney, and thereby Epic, is apparently entirely inept to, if not just plane stubborn out of obliviousness, never wanting to acknowledge the embarrassment they are... Wait! I know what it is: *You've got mail! New mail from Tim Sweeney: Your Daily Epic CEO Memo: 'Never do anything that is good for the customer! If they leave? Who cares! We can always get more!'"

And please don't even begin with "well Fortnite is played worldwide with players buying stuff in-game all over the world" as then you've only helped make my case, even made the embarrassment of Epic Price Gouging even more pronounced as a matter of inexplicable fact regarding the Epic Fail Store.

Remember the folks who lost their free games from Epic and Epic's customer support told them "you'll have to buy it again" AFTER it's no longer free?.... Yeah, well in light of this price gouging: That truly is..."Epic."
最后由 McGillicutti 编辑于; 2019 年 8 月 2 日 上午 3:41
Start_Running 2019 年 8 月 2 日 上午 8:15 
引用自 Erebus
引用自 Start_Running

And yet they have not disclosed this so called increasing share. What is being said there is that the couldn't affort to bleed that sort of money anymore. WIth one extra competitor that's one more shark in the water.

Look there is no way in hell they are still getting titles at 30/70 not when humble is 25, Steam is 20-30%, ...Epic is ugh 12%, Discord tried 10%, itch is whatever %.

There is no planet in which GOG can still command 30% when publishers and devs are biased against them from the get-go.

Well keep in mind Steamm , for most developers will always e 30%. Niche developers will never see the volume of sales needs. As for their claim of paying out to developers. There's an explanattion for that...Remember GoG Connect?
Erebus 2019 年 8 月 2 日 上午 8:37 
引用自 Start_Running
引用自 Erebus

Look there is no way in hell they are still getting titles at 30/70 not when humble is 25, Steam is 20-30%, ...Epic is ugh 12%, Discord tried 10%, itch is whatever %.

There is no planet in which GOG can still command 30% when publishers and devs are biased against them from the get-go.

Well keep in mind Steamm , for most developers will always e 30%. Niche developers will never see the volume of sales needs.
Irrelevant. GOG still needs to do business with the big publishers, and they need to sell their platform to indies. Whether those indies are realistic about their potential sales doesn't matter. If they think they can get 12-25% going with other stores why the ♥♥♥♥ would they put their wares on GOG? GOG doesn't have as much negotiating power as Steam, and GOGs hardline stance on DRM and stuff puts them at a disadvantage in convincing business partners.

As for their claim of paying out to developers. There's an explanattion for that...Remember GoG Connect?
Reread the actual ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ wording: "With an increasing share paid to developers, our cut gets smaller."

See the words there?

You know...

share & cut

That's not specific to connect... and it would have zero impact on the fair pricing package they just would stop doing gog connect promos.
最后由 Erebus 编辑于; 2019 年 8 月 2 日 上午 8:37
Erebus 2019 年 8 月 2 日 上午 8:43 
引用自 thugchuck
引用自 Dr. Sinister
Again, I don't care about Epics store and what they have or don't have to offer. What are you going to say if Epic does add those features? That Valve can still justify a 70/30 split? Again, no one has provided a proper explanation as to why Valve cannot do the 88/12 split without frothing at the mouth and calling people a Timmy bootlicker

Edited: Because I have a wall of text and know some people just do not like to read. so to sum up why oh why.
Steam makes most of their money on sales with the 70/30.
Epic makes most of their money through fortnite and then Unreal license.
Steam isn't about to cut their main money stream and Epic can't make it theirs anytime soon.

While I feel I gave a reasonable case without knowing either companies financials, I will add a bit more to what you ignored earlier when I posted why Valve isn't likely to do a better split. If that helps. Valve's sole business model is being a platform that offers a service. Inside that service they offer a few other things like their IPs and the virtual items IE:trading cards they sell on the community market. The game developer or publisher get a little of that as well. (that is left out of most arguments). You also completely ignore that Steam does try to help smaller developers.
https://store.steampowered.com/sub/163632/
Don't see that on EGS...
Something like Terraria, Stardew Valley, Wizardry 8 (sorry that is just me on Wiz8) Would never pass EGS inspection because they would have considered those games as not worthy.

EGS has the advantage of the unreal engine license. Every game made with unreal agrees to a 5% fee to Epic. Tim has said that he will wave that 5% fee if they sell on EGS. So for games sold on EGS made with the unreal engine that split is 93/7%.
https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/blog/announcing-the-epic-games-store

All Tim is doing is looking to win over enough of the market share of gamers by any means. 88/12 doesn't have to be sustainable thanks to the money they have on hand. Tim is trying to play the game of under cutting the competition by taking a loss to win over market share. That is why he gave Steam the challenge to match the 88/12. He knows it's not sustainable and if he can convince his strongest competitor to take a financial hit to their income stream by lowering their split, he will win to some degree there as well. By that time maybe he will have EGS more in line with services and he hopes Steam overlooks that he still can offer that 5% license fee for games to stay on EGS.
Now I will agree that Steam could lower their take a little but I seriously doubt they will. If they did it wouldn't be permanent and not a sure way to hurt EGS. Also since the 88/12 model isn't sustainable for what Steam has on overhead (IMO) they would eventually go back and the PR nightmare for it would not be worth trying to hurt EGS. Smart move is let EGS do what they are doing as they are the ones taking the risk and the PR hit for when things do not work out. If Steam loses to EGS and great quality games I like are still being made and not cheap re-skins with AAA paint jobs then hey, I we can do this again on Epic's forums...
Sidenote you accidentally the math on the UE4 games on EGS portion. The cut never drops below 12% they just don't tack the 5% on over the top of that. So instead of 17% cut, they just charge the 12%.
Hannibal 2019 年 8 月 2 日 上午 9:50 
Awesome two great games free today.
Erebus 2019 年 8 月 2 日 上午 9:54 
引用自 ~☆ Jim ☆~
Awesome two great games free today.
Who cares?

Half the ♥♥♥♥ they've given out in the past has practically no value and or is stuff anyone interested likely already bought.
WhiteKnight 2019 年 8 月 2 日 上午 9:55 
引用自 Count_Dandyman
引用自 Eisberg
-snip-
So your saying Valve should do something Epic were asked to do by the devs of the games they are selling and refused to. So seeing as you think that system is such a good way to handle it what is your response to Tims flat out refusal to do it?

Hell if the amount of transactions involved was such a tiny fraction like you are trying to claim you could easily just eat those costs as an insignificant expense.
Just ignore him. He is a broken record. He keep repeating same crap everywhere.
Count_Dandyman 2019 年 8 月 2 日 上午 9:57 
引用自 ~☆ Jim ☆~
Awesome two great games free today.
One of which was already given out on Steam almost a year ago.
Paul D. 2019 年 8 月 2 日 上午 10:02 
Steam should charge 10% not 30%. Ofc they can afford it but it's too hard to tell the private shareholder board, including billionaire CEO, that profit will be cut for a while for a more stable future. No long term vision, no desire to make things right. If anyone thinks Valve is the good, intelligent entity in this story, think again.

From the point of view of developers, Valve 100% deserves a slap by Epic. Consumers are mad at Epic because of the exclusive deals, they should be mad at Steam because the developers actually make a profit by accepting the deal.

I've come here before before Fortnite even existed, and explained why 30% is too much and why that'll bring trouble in the long term. Am I a prophet with magical powers?

TL;DR
You want to keep monopoly? Deserve it.
Start_Running 2019 年 8 月 2 日 上午 10:04 
引用自 Erebus
As for their claim of paying out to developers. There's an explanattion for that...Remember GoG Connect?
Reread the actual ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ wording: "With an increasing share paid to developers, our cut gets smaller."

See the words there?

You know...

share & cut
Share of?
Cut of?

Learn rto ask question when you read a PR piece. Share could refer to gross revenue in which case the the cut would be influenced by things like the amount they have to pay out for GoG Connect titles.

See how that works?
So unless you can find some hard statement as to what ptheir actual cut is...

When Steam made a change in their shares, they had a big post about it.
So why would you assume GoG would be any different than STeam, or Origin?, their primary competitors?
Erebus 2019 年 8 月 2 日 上午 10:16 
引用自 Paul
Steam should charge 10% not 30%. Ofc they can afford it but it's too hard to tell the private shareholder board, including billionaire CEO, that profit will be cut for a while for a more stable future. No long term vision, no desire to make things right. If anyone thinks Valve is the good, intelligent entity in this story, think again.

From the point of view of developers, Valve 100% deserves a slap by Epic. Consumers are mad at Epic because of the exclusive deals, they should be mad at Steam because the developers actually make a profit by accepting the deal.

I've come here before before Fortnite even existed, and explained why 30% is too much and why that'll bring trouble in the long term. Am I a prophet with magical powers?

TL;DR
You want to keep monopoly? Deserve it.
They'd literally be taking a loss on a number of sales, and have to ditch Steam keys. But thanks for your worthless contribution to the discussion.

引用自 Start_Running
引用自 Erebus

Reread the actual ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ wording: "With an increasing share paid to developers, our cut gets smaller."

See the words there?

You know...

share & cut
Share of?
Cut of?

Learn rto ask question when you read a PR piece. Share could refer to gross revenue in which case the the cut would be influenced by things like the amount they have to pay out for GoG Connect titles.

See how that works?
So unless you can find some hard statement as to what ptheir actual cut is...

When Steam made a change in their shares, they had a big post about it.
So why would you assume GoG would be any different than STeam, or Origin?, their primary competitors?
There is a difference between being skeptical of PR and jumping throw multiple hoops to try and make the most convoluted explanation stick. You're doing the latter right now. No I don't buy PR wholesale, there are other factors at work in GOG's situation but it's stupid to try and twist the wording this way and that to make it describe a separate situation. You're not reading between the lines there you're rejecting what was written and substituting your own reality.

I agree with you on many of the points you've made in the past, but you're off base here. Either that or English is not your native tongue. What you are suggesting isn't much different from outright falsehoods being given.
Paul D. 2019 年 8 月 2 日 上午 10:24 
引用自 Erebus
They'd literally be taking a loss on a number of sales, and have to ditch Steam keys.

There's no such thing as a loss in this place. The cash flows in, becomes a big pile, some is used for infrastructure, bandwidth, services, employees... And then 90% remains, turns into investment or profit.

However, when they lose monopoly, yes, the losses might progressively arrive and the 30% of the few games sold will be definitely needed.
Erebus 2019 年 8 月 2 日 上午 10:25 
引用自 Paul
引用自 Erebus
They'd literally be taking a loss on a number of sales, and have to ditch Steam keys.

There's no such thing as a loss in this place. The cash flows in, becomes a big pile, some is used for infrastructure, bandwidth, services, employees... And then 90% remains, turns into investment or profit.

However, when they lose monopoly, yes, the losses might progressively arrive and the 30% of the few games sold will be definitely needed.
"I've never heard of taxes, payment processing fees, and currency conversion fees." -literally you
Paul D. 2019 年 8 月 2 日 上午 10:27 
引用自 Erebus
"I've never heard of taxes, payment processing fees, and currency conversion fees." -literally you

Maybe developers could pay these without the 30% blood sucking of their work.
Count_Dandyman 2019 年 8 月 2 日 上午 10:29 
引用自 Paul
引用自 Erebus
"I've never heard of taxes, payment processing fees, and currency conversion fees." -literally you

Maybe developers could pay these without the 30% blood sucking of their work.
so instead of the devs paying Steam a flat rate for all of them you want devs to be forced into paying from 5-80% randomly.
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发帖日期: 2019 年 7 月 5 日 下午 7:47
回复数: 6,649