RDR 2 Steam delay shows that publishers can treat Steam users like crap because Valve won't do anything

[Mendax]

Steam's becoming a joke. 1 month delay and you allow it? Unless you do something PC gaming will return to 2007.

[Charged Dreamer]

Escrito originalmente por VaiTaPro:

I think every pubs/devs should have there own individual launcher and there own exclusivity time, after the exclusivity they would start selling everywhere but they would have to ''survive'' on sales only and no longer on the gambling epic is doing.

That's a controversial statement but tbh that's what's going to happen sooner or later. I don't see indie and midsize game publishers going this route though but instead they might very well choose to sign exclusive deals with Epic Games/Sony/Microsoft/Google or Apple.

[Erebus]

Escrito originalmente por Ganger:

Escrito originalmente por Tito Shivan:

And in the grand scheme of things. DRM is an issue for a quote small subset of people playing games.

Worries like DRM being a threat to keep your games in the future have little importance when for a lot of people games are pretty much a perishable good (buy, play, forget)

Myself personally don't have issues with DRM at all and I don't believe I have ever come across people in real life that do. Most people I meet in real life tend to favor the consoles over the PC and DRM never comes up in conversion.

And like you state above, I myself tend to buy, play and forget games and move forward to the next game. I would guess most people do this as well.

Probably a UK thing.

[Tito Shivan]

Escrito originalmente por Ganger:

Myself personally don't have issues with DRM at all and I don't believe I have ever come across people in real life that do.

You're hitting the nail on the head on this subject. The internet is not the real world.
It's funny to read all these arguments and big words about gaming... And then you go out to real life people and no one really cares about it.

Do you know how many times I've heard about Denuvo in the real world?
Zero.

About Epic exclusives?
Zero, heard about the free games though.

About the evil lootboxes?
Zero. Quite some about what they unboxed at FIFA

And so on.

It's quite easy to lose perspective but... everyone around the community worried and discussing about these subjects? A drop in the ocean.

Remeber when Microsoft said always online DRM want that bad because people actually was online 24/7?
All the crap they got for saying it they turned out to be right in the end.

[Ganger]

Escrito originalmente por Erebus:

Probably a UK thing.

Could be, I am from the UK. Really, people I know in real life who use consoles tend to buy a game, play it, finish it and then trade it in if it's not a digital copy. The people I know who play PC gaming just do the same (apart from trading in games that is).

The people and gamers im friendly with are mostly aged from 30 years old and upwards and all have jobs, homes and families (apart from a few) and none of these people I interact with ever discuss DRM in games to my knowledge. They all buy games to play and then once completed, they move onto the next game.

[Ganger]

Escrito originalmente por Tito Shivan:

Do you know how many times I've heard about Denuvo in the real world?
Zero.

About Epic exclusives?
Zero, heard about the free games though.

About the evil lootboxes?
Zero. Quite some about what they unboxed at FIFA

Come to think about, I have talked about epic with a few other real life steam mates and we have talked about loot boxes (all this because we are in the same gaming circles) but outside this small group, I never talked about it not even to my partner. And for DRM, even my real life steam mates don't talk about it because its a none issue for us I would say.

[Crazy Tiger]

Escrito originalmente por Tito Shivan:

It's funny to read all these arguments and big words about gaming... And then you go out to real life people and no one really cares about it.

It's quite logical. People who take issue with something try to find an outlet and they end up on forums like these. People who don't care just play their games.

Escrito originalmente por Tito Shivan:

Remeber when Microsoft said always online DRM want that bad because people actually was online 24/7?
All the crap they got for saying it they turned out to be right in the end.

Exactly. Though it depends on the device you're using and where. A PC/console at home is different than a handheld device (Handhelds/tablets/phones). For the latter online DRM can be really annoying and I've seen it patched out of games on the iPad quite often.

[Erebus]

Escrito originalmente por Tito Shivan:

Escrito originalmente por Ganger:

Myself personally don't have issues with DRM at all and I don't believe I have ever come across people in real life that do.

You're hitting the nail on the head on this subject. The internet is not the real world.
It's funny to read all these arguments and big words about gaming... And then you go out to real life people and no one really cares about it.

That could be said about most hobbies and honestly even political "hot topics". Unless something majorly impacts someone's day-to-day or they are among a group that share <x> interest the topic won't come up.

There are way more people that care about "going green" or <x> social issue or blah blah blah on facebook than in person. And the ones that harp about it in person tend to repulse all but the most like-minded of sorts.

Do you know how many times I've heard about Denuvo in the real world?
Zero.

About Epic exclusives?
Zero, heard about the free games though.

About the evil lootboxes?
Zero. Quite some about what they unboxed at FIFA

And so on.

What context would you be in where PC gaming would actually come up? Cause you have to take that into account... only someone totally unhinged is going to be ranting about videogames at the grocery store for instance (and lets be honest gaming still has a stigma... you don't really want to discuss it outside of some very specific circumstances.

Remeber when Microsoft said always online DRM want that bad because people actually was online 24/7?
All the crap they got for saying it they turned out to be right in the end.

You miss some context, I suspect cause like Ganger you're European. A lot of the world has really ♥♥♥♥♥♥ internet infrastructure. Only 53% of people live in urban centers globally last I knew.

Yes most people that care are online 24/7, but that doesn't mean said connection actually works 24/7. Occasional drops is enough to royally screw always online anything. Someone hit a junction box down the road? Great you might get internet back functioning properly in a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ month.

I'd be willing to bet most the people that don't care about DRM, don't care about streaming, don't care about always online requirements, don't care about future access, and etc. all probably live in large metropolitan areas where space to collect things comes at a premium, where internet infrastructure is at it's best, and where people are to be frank used to ownership being replaced with temp services and the like.

[Tito Shivan]

Escrito originalmente por Erebus:

What context would you be in where PC gaming would actually come up? Cause you have to take that into account... only someone totally unhinged is going to be ranting about videogames at the grocery store for instance (and lets be honest gaming still has a stigma... you don't really want to discuss it outside of some very specific circumstances.

An IT related field with a high ammount of gamers within.
Games and gaming is a frequent chit chat topic. But the subjects these forums discuss regularly as big issues never pop up.

Escrito originalmente por Erebus:

You miss some context, I suspect cause like Ganger you're European. A lot of the world has really ♥♥♥♥♥♥ internet infrastructure. Only 53% of people live in urban centers globally last I knew.

Europe isn't as different as you guys think it is. I've been gaming on a 6Mbs DSL connection until not so long ago, so I know pretty well the issues of '♥♥♥♥♥♥ internet'
The biggest difference between EU and the US is the prevalence of data caps in the US (which is mostly only a thing for mobile connections here)

Escrito originalmente por Erebus:

I'd be willing to bet most the people that don't care about DRM, don't care about streaming, don't care about always online requirements, don't care about future access, and etc. all probably live in large metropolitan areas where space to collect things comes at a premium, where internet infrastructure is at it's best, and where people are to be frank used to ownership being replaced with temp services and the like.

Or it's people who just like to play games.

Not everyone who likes music is an audiophile. And not everyone who plays games is a 'gamer'

[Erebus]

Escrito originalmente por Tito Shivan:

Europe isn't as different as you guys think it is. I've been gaming on a 6Mbs DSL connection until not so long ago, so I know pretty well the issues of '♥♥♥♥♥♥ internet'

The fact you think that is ♥♥♥♥♥♥ internet is cute. No I don't rightly think you have a clue how internet is elsewhere judging by that.

I would kill to have that available in some of the areas I've lived. And I don't live out in the mountains or a forest. I'm not that far from "cities".

[Tito Shivan]

Escrito originalmente por Erebus:

The fact you think that is ♥♥♥♥♥♥ internet is cute. No I don't rightly think you have a clue how internet is elsewhere judging by that.

I would kill to have that available in some of the areas I've lived. And I don't live out in the mountains or a forest. I'm not that far from "cities".

That was the nominal speed. ISPs were only legally bound to guarantee a 20% of that bandwith. I'll let you guess how often I got nowhere close to that bandwith.

I've also gamed on a single Megabit connection with the same premises.

And I've worked in places with barely functioning single Mb connection. On a capital city. And I'm speaking of the later 2000s
Broad Internet fiber deploy on cities is a quite recent infrastructure addition. Our urban Internet relied mostly on a outdated and badly maintained infrastructure. Our more rural areas face the same connectivity issues yours have.

At the end of the day. Connectivity is run both sides of the ocean by the same kind of businesses.

[adz]

its great that rockstar is releasing red dead 2 pc on all platforms including my favourite steam. this is what all devs should do and not keep games hostage on 1 platform.

i dont care if i wait the 1 month for rd2 worth the wait to get on your choice of platform.

[Erebus]

Escrito originalmente por Tito Shivan:

That was the nominal speed. ISPs were only legally bound to guarantee a 20% of that bandwith. I'll let you guess how often I got nowhere close to that bandwith.

Best case I get half that. And I live in the township right outside a "city". It was actually even less until like 2 years ago. There is no competition in the area either even though it's sandwiched right between 4 "notable" (for the region) cities. It's either this ♥♥♥♥♥♥ DSL, or end of the line deployments like fixed wireless/microwave.

Looking at property listings you have to cross-reference with maps and ISPs whether you can even get proper internet.

I've also gamed on a single Megabit connection with the same premises.

And I've worked in places with barely functioning single Mb connection. On a capital city. And I'm speaking of the later 2000s

I had dial-up up until a little bit before I joined Steam in 2010. That was the option.

Broad Internet fiber deploy on cities is a quite recent infrastructure addition. Our urban Internet relied mostly on a outdated and badly maintained infrastructure.

On a per country basis many European countries don't have the same level of logistical problems. Population density is way higher in a number of spots, so when they do invest in infrastructure they can cover a large number of people with a shorter distance.

Our more rural areas face the same connectivity issues yours have.

At the end of the day. Connectivity is run both sides of the ocean by the same kind of businesses.

Probably, but the logistics can be night and day different.


---------------
Also, correct me if I'm wrong but when you factor those various reports on per region earnings from game sales combined with population... isn't Europe one of the lowest earning regions for gaming per pop.? That is certainly also going to impact perspectives on these issues a lot.

Perhaps a large amount of those in the rural areas with the crap internet over there didn't get into gaming like other regions have for instance. (Not claiming this is the case, just throwing it out as a potential.)

[adz]

dial up days for me where cs 1.5/ cs 1.3 around 2001-2002 i got broadband cable 2004 huge difference in ping from being 200-250 to 20-30, but i do remember it was only a 1gb per month than you get capped.

[Ganger]

Escrito originalmente por Erebus:

I'd be willing to bet most the people that don't care about DRM, don't care about streaming, don't care about always online requirements, don't care about future access, and etc. all probably live in large metropolitan areas where space to collect things comes at a premium, where internet infrastructure is at it's best, and where people are to be frank used to ownership being replaced with temp services and the like.

I would say your right in this regards Erebus. Please understand it from my side here and what im about to say.... I have more pressing issues and priorities in my life.

First my main worry is being able to keep the roof over my families head and keeping my kids feed, clothed and warmed and my life must revolve around being able to maintain these at all costs. So gaming issues are really at the bottom of the list of things to worry about or care about for me.

Don't get me wrong, I see the way the industry is heading and I don't like it. What can I do about this, stop doing something I love just to make a point ? All this DRM, streaming, epic vs steam, MTX, loot boxes have no bearing on my real life what so ever, so I choose to ignore it totally.

I dis-like streaming and im going too be totally honest here, but if one day in the future streaming is the only way to play games then I will be streaming.

[Start_Running]

Escrito originalmente por Ganger:

Escrito originalmente por Erebus:

I'd be willing to bet most the people that don't care about DRM, don't care about streaming, don't care about always online requirements, don't care about future access, and etc. all probably live in large metropolitan areas where space to collect things comes at a premium, where internet infrastructure is at it's best, and where people are to be frank used to ownership being replaced with temp services and the like.

I would say your right in this regards Erebus. Please understand it from my side here and what im about to say.... I have more pressing issues and priorities in my life.

First my main worry is being able to keep the roof over my families head and keeping my kids feed, clothed and warmed and my life must revolve around being able to maintain these at all costs. So gaming issues are really at the bottom of the list of things to worry about or care about for me.

It rtends to be that way for many of , if not most of us.

Don't get me wrong, I see the way the industry is heading and I don't like it. What can I do about this, stop doing something I love just to make a point ? All this DRM, streaming, epic vs steam, MTX, loot boxes have no bearing on my real life what so ever, so I choose to ignore it totally.[/quiote]
Which is what most sensible people do. MTX, you don't have to buy anything. DLC. You don't have to buy it. Loot boxes, you don't have to open them. Let those who want it, buy it and rthose that don't play the base.

It really ios that simple. Buut that logic tends to irk some people because there is a group of gamers that can't think of anything worse than seeing someone else having fun with something in game that they themselves cannot affiord or do not want to pay for.

I dis-like streaming and im going too be totally honest here, but if one day in the future streaming is the only way to play games then I will be streaming.

I'll probably drift away from gaming at that point and just take up a new hobby. But the jkoke about that ism, there will always be some group that will buck the norms and ergo capture the market of people who dislike streaming.