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French courts rule that Steam cannot ban resale of 'dematerialised' games
https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/french-courts-rule-that-steam-cannot-ban-resale-of-dematerialised-games/

Likely to be appealed and if not steam can just ignore it and pay the fine which would only be around $600,000. Will be intresting to see if this triggers any changes and how that would work with regions and publishers who are not located in france.

German Courts disagree with French Courts in their rulings here - https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/02/10/german-court-rules-against-rights-to-resell-steam-games/

EU Video Game Trade Body also disagree's with France's stance on it - https://www.pcgamesinsider.biz/news/69716/european-video-games-trade-body-says-frances-steam-ruling-flies-in-face-of-eu-law/
Отредактировано Brian9824; 24 сен. 2019 г. в 8:09
Автор сообщения: Tito Shivan:
Автор сообщения: Count_Dandyman
Given German courts already ruled against the resale of games under the same EU rulings that the French are ruling for them with I predict a long battle up the chain before we get a definitive answer.
The German ruling (I guess you''re talking about the VZVB vs Valve lawsuit) is just a national ruling. It doesn't really create jurisprudence at an European level. Just like the French ruling does.
Unless any of those suits is brought up to the CJEU for them to make a ruling (I.E. Usedsoft vs Oracle) it's not really 'EU Law'

Other than that I'll keep the same advice I've used on similar demands or requests in similar subjects.

Beware what you wish for, because you may get it

Doubt French users will be able to start reselling their games tomorrow but it's certainly a Pandora box of unforeseen consequences.

Автор сообщения: fauxtronic
The problem is that it has set a precedent
It's a national court. It doesn't set a precedent at a European level. They'd have to bring the case to higher tribunals to have the CJEU to set a ruling which does set precedent at an EU level.

Автор сообщения: fauxtronic
But that presents another problem: By complying with the ruling, they risk losing publishers who don't want their games listed on platforms which allow them to be resold.
They'd be bound by the same ruling regardless. They could try to fight it and force a lawsuit upon them too but once there's a proper ruling on the matter (and unless a superior court overturns it) the lawsuit is on the fast lane for the same ruling.

The lawsuit was against Steam, but every other service (Origin, Epic, Uplay, Google Play, iTunes, W10 Store, BNet, Any developer Storefront...) Would have to follow suit too if asked to on France (or fight a brief lawsuit to have a tribunal force them to comply)

Автор сообщения: cinedine
The gist of the German ruling is that Steam provides services that cannot be transferred. There'd be no problem for them to let you transfer the game license to another account. However, associated service - like using Steam to download the game - are a different issue. Note the subscription part in "Steam Subscription".
The lawsuit also was the VZVB requesting Valve to comply following the Usedsoft Vs Oracle ruling. And the tribunals denied it on the grounds that -unlike the EU ruling case- games were not purely 'software' which meant IP protection laws also applied to games unlike proper 'software' (like productivity software) licenses.
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Сообщения 391405 из 1,030
Автор сообщения: Horrible Orbit
Gwarsbane, I've addressed those concerns. Recently. In this thread.

Ok think I found them...

Автор сообщения: Horrible Orbit
That would be a colossal improvement to the efficiency of the automotive industry, if the dominant forces therein allowed it to be. But what you're implicitly asking is what should happen if material degradation and quality stop being factors that affect costs. Am I right?

Ya thats pretty much it because physical items degrade with use, digital items do not.



Автор сообщения: Horrible Orbit
The easiest way to deal with that, for a company in Valve's position, is to impose price-parity regulations. Essentially, they'd greenlight a game's resale within a range of prices that have a minimum and maximum which are measured against the price of the game on the day it's sold. So if someone buys a $40 game and tries to resell it for $1, or for $100, they'd be prevented from doing so automatically. Likewise, if someone bought a copy of a game, then resells it when new copies are discounted, that discount should also be applied globally to sales of the same used game that occur within the timeframe of the discount.

They are already being sued because they don't allow resale of digital only games. This will bring them right back into court with arguments that they are still not allowing them to sell off their game or they are putting limits on how you can sell the game. So basically its pretty much the same thing they are in courts now for.



Автор сообщения: Horrible Orbit
You'd be buying a copy and access to updates, which is transferred with the copy if sold etc., in fairly literal parlance. It would still be a Steam copy, though, and would only be transferable through Steam itself. That's why Valve would set the pricing regulations, and also explains how they'd enforce them (through Steam itself).This certainly would deal another blow to physical game sales, but lest we forget, that's literally the reason Steam exists in the first place.

Nope that won't fly either, because then Valve would be selling an altered version of the game. If someone buys a digital game and it has A,B,C and D, then sells off that game to someone else but now it only comes with A, B and D yet its suppose to be the exact same game, well thats not going to fly in the courts either. Because if the game originally came with A, B, C and D, used digital exact copies must be sold with A, B, C and D. Or at the very least, thats what will be argued in the court... which is where this would end up again because it would be Valve trying to get around the "must be allowed to sell" rules.

There is a reason this is not done in Mass Effect 2 any longer (I think they were sued, but its been so long that I don't remember and its hard to find the info in google). Heck they shut down the servers for the online part of the game in 2012.



About the only thing they might get away with is a digital "Used" stamp on the game page, and maybe a "used" stamp in the menu, but even that I doubt.


Again digital only game copies are vastly different from any physical media based games. Physical media disk scratch, well too bad, no game for you. With a digital only item, hard drive literally shatters... get a new drive, download the game again and go.
Автор сообщения: Mr Likeable
Автор сообщения: UnderdogPsychosis
You could be right if they keep the "greedy mentality" But for longest part of games being around you have always been able to sell them without any of them turning into subscription/surprise mechanics based incomes.
Physical games could be resold. Big difference.
No matter how many times you point it out he refuses to realize the implications physical vs. digital has on the concept of resale.
Автор сообщения: UnderdogPsychosis
You could be right if they keep the "greedy mentality" But for longest part of games being around you have always been able to sell them without any of them turning into subscription/surprise mechanics based incomes.

On PC, the used game sales market died with the invention of the CD key. Because there was so many people scamming others. I remember this way way back where friends tried to buy used copies but stopped after the third one was still a scam.
So since then buying a new copy of a PC game was basically a must.

On Console, Gamestop made like 4.2 billion in used game sales certain years and it actively hurt the game companies because if they didn't make enough sales on the first week or even first few days, the used games would take away all of their profit.

Online pass was made for a reason. Microtransactions where made for a reason.
Steam became popular because Developers saw that you couldn't just sell your games to others so you would always make money from it and it's why Steam grew to the size it is today.


The greed mentality is coming from you because only care about yourself in this case. You don't care what happens to the game developers at all.

But if Steam where to protect the developers they could just say "We'll take a 70% fee for using our service" because if Gamestop could do it, Steam could.
Then Steam could give most of the money to the game company.
Автор сообщения: UnderdogPsychosis
You do realise the money they re-invest into the devs and the actual marketing and support is a fraction of what they actually make from said games.
This is not always the case as only a small percentage of games are heavily profitable like that.

If reselling like this was a factor we would not have the indie game companies that so many decent games have come from it and only large businesses would have the ability to keep making games in most cases.

And even then profits for them would be heavily cut and even they would cut back on the amount of games that are released if at all continue and you will have effectively killed off the gaming community to a small fraction of what it is.

Even large company games have flopped and there are more costs in making games then what I said.

Game prices have stayed around the same prices from 20+ years ago even with inflation and the increased cost of making a game heavily due to the fact of the increase of sales from no more reselling as we used to have with physical games that were able to be installed / used an unlimited amount of times and competition.
Gwarsbane, you're mistaken about my meaning. I didn't mean to say that the seller would retain *any* of the features of a resold game, but that those features (updates, for example), would be transferred with the copy. Nobody would want the latest Stardew Valley patch if they don't have the game anymore, in the first place. But I could've been clearer there.

Also, I was led to believe that the ruling would compel Valve to allow the resale of games, but didn't call for their completely unregulated resale. Although I don't know anything about French law, including the one in question, so that could be the case.
Автор сообщения: UnderdogPsychosis
You could be right if they keep the "greedy mentality" But for longest part of games being around you have always been able to sell them without any of them turning into subscription/surprise mechanics based incomes.
Let's pretend for a second that they do implement it and don't go the subscription/microtransaction route? Have you ever thought what it might lead to? Imagine always online DRM or Xbox One styled daily check ins to verify you still own the game. Alternatively, they could do things to try to make it one of those "What's the point?" kind of things such as giving you a very small percent of it and dividing it up between the developer and themselves.
Автор сообщения: Erebus
Автор сообщения: Mr Likeable
Physical games could be resold. Big difference.
No matter how many times you point it out he refuses to realize the implications physical vs. digital has on the concept of resale.
No I absolutely do and have owned up to realiziing the implacations, and put suggestions forward to combat said problems and I'm sure if it was implemented the professionals would also fix these "implications" and have better strategies and methods from people in a steam disscussion. But I guess you are the professional with the magic wisdom ball?
Отредактировано h00s; 20 сен. 2019 г. в 23:10
Автор сообщения: UnderdogPsychosis
Автор сообщения: Erebus
No matter how many times you point it out he refuses to realize the implications physical vs. digital has on the concept of resale.
No I absolutely do and have owned up to realiziing the implacations, and put suggestions forward to combat said problems and I'm sure if it was implemented the professionals would also fix these "implications"
and have better strategies and methods from people in a steam disscussion. But I guess you are the professional with the magic wisdom ball?
The only "fix" would be to change business models. Anything else like defacing or degrading the product in transfer would still run afoul of laws in all likelihood should resell gain actual traction.
Автор сообщения: Horrible Orbit
Also, I was led to believe that the ruling would compel Valve to allow the resale of games, but didn't call for their completely unregulated resale. Although I don't know anything about French law, including the one in question, so that could be the case.

Anyone who has paid attention to the stats that Valve provides for developers knows that about 1/3 of the sales on Steam are from China (predominantly) and other Asian territories. Another 1/3 is from the United States (& Canada?) & Europe. Another 1/3 comes from a large collection of other small countries.

France isn't all of North America & Europe (which is only 1/3 of the market) so the impact this will have if it gets implemented is actually really small, most likely. This France ruling likely won't compel them too much yet, especially since the laws of the legal system are slow to actually implement and usually get written without any plan of action to enforce.
Автор сообщения: Horrible Orbit
Gwarsbane, you're mistaken about my meaning. I didn't mean to say that the seller would retain *any* of the features of a resold game, but that those features (updates, for example), would be transferred with the copy. Nobody would want the latest Stardew Valley patch if they don't have the game anymore, in the first place. But I could've been clearer there.

Also, I was led to believe that the ruling would compel Valve to allow the resale of games, but didn't call for their completely unregulated resale. Although I don't know anything about French law, including the one in question, so that could be the case.

And I covered that in another post.... they would be sued because digital copies of games should be identical to the first day they are sold to the last day they are sold. Someone buying on the first day will have the same game as someone buying on the last day.

A court will say because its a digital copy (in reality its just a key you are reselling) it should be identical in every way. Removing stuff that comes with new bought versions of the game just because its used will not be allowed. Its a key to a digital copy, all digital copies should be the same.

So ya, I can only see this as ending up back in court.

At best you might be able to get away with a "USED" mark on the game in someones profile and a "USED" in the games menu, but thats about it. If I can buy a used copy of a game and its identical in every way to a new copy except that it has used on it in the menu that I look at for about 2 tenths of a second as I go into the game for cheaper... well of course I'm going to buy the used one.

Again I bring up Electronic Arts doing this with Mass Effect 2 I think it was. I think they got sued over it but I can't find any info on it because it was so long ago and EA dropped support for the multiplayer game servers in 2012.
Автор сообщения: Erebus
Автор сообщения: UnderdogPsychosis
No I absolutely do and have owned up to realiziing the implacations, and put suggestions forward to combat said problems and I'm sure if it was implemented the professionals would also fix these "implications"
and have better strategies and methods from people in a steam disscussion. But I guess you are the professional with the magic wisdom ball?
The only "fix" would be to change business models. Anything else like defacing or degrading the product in transfer would still run afoul of laws in all likelihood should resell gain actual traction.
I've thought of some solutions that don't involve F2P and Subscriptions, but they're not going to be good. Here are our options:
A.) Subscriptions (What I hate most about consoles right now.)
B.) Free to play games with micro transactions all over the place (Might not work if these laws also apply to that stuff, too.)
C.) Steam pulling out of France and hoping it doesn't spread. (Don't want to comply? Don't do business there.)
D.) Xbox One DRM that requires daily check-ins. (Got to keep people from backing up games they sold and playing them later some how. Not the kind of thing I would want to happened.)
E.) Revenue distribution that kind of makes it pointless to do it. (Valve could still allow you to sell these games, but the cut might make it not worth it as they might set up a system when Valve and publishers still get a good chunk of the money anyway. Would also make buying used to avoid supporting crappy companies a bit of a moot point as they'd still get paid either way.)
Автор сообщения: Gwarsbane
Автор сообщения: Horrible Orbit
Gwarsbane, you're mistaken about my meaning. I didn't mean to say that the seller would retain *any* of the features of a resold game, but that those features (updates, for example), would be transferred with the copy. Nobody would want the latest Stardew Valley patch if they don't have the game anymore, in the first place. But I could've been clearer there.

Also, I was led to believe that the ruling would compel Valve to allow the resale of games, but didn't call for their completely unregulated resale. Although I don't know anything about French law, including the one in question, so that could be the case.

And I covered that in another post.... they would be sued because digital copies of games should be identical to the first day they are sold to the last day they are sold. Someone buying on the first day will have the same game as someone buying on the last day.

A court will say because its a digital copy (in reality its just a key you are reselling) it should be identical in every way. Removing stuff that comes with new bought versions of the game just because its used will not be allowed. Its a key to a digital copy, all digital copies should be the same.

So ya, I can only see this as ending up back in court.

At best you might be able to get away with a "USED" mark on the game in someones profile and a "USED" in the games menu, but thats about it. If I can buy a used copy of a game and its identical in every way to a new copy except that it has used on it in the menu that I look at for about 2 tenths of a second as I go into the game for cheaper... well of course I'm going to buy the used one.

Again I bring up Electronic Arts doing this with Mass Effect 2 I think it was. I think they got sued over it but I can't find any info on it because it was so long ago and EA dropped support for the multiplayer game servers in 2012.

Already covered in the post you were quoting. Someone else is calling for a used game stamp, but I'm calling for (at least functionally) identical used copies. Copy identification/authentication DRM would serve the same purpose, after all.
Here's another idea guys... what if as a developer, the Steam API got updated, letting me check if my game is used or not...

I could do all sorts of things as a developer! I could put something on the splash screen that says, "Thanks for NOT paying me for my game!"
...I could put stink-lines coming off of all of the food & people in the game because their food & clothes are "used".
I could make it so that every time you start up the game it audibly says, "DIRTY LAUNDRY!"
I could have the game save to the cloud which treasure chests have already been opened and just leave them open - LOL.
I could make it so that the babies in the game are grown up now. The old people dead.
I could make it so all of the maintenance workers quit their jobs and became enemy minions instead, leaving manholes open, bridges in disarray, and any signs that you destroy because you're a menace of a main character... just don't respawn.

This could actually be a lot of fun.
Автор сообщения: YamaKami
"If" was intentionally stated. It's meant to provoke thought as a potential scenario/outcome of going to far with the idea or reselling. I feel as a gamer it's easy to go "WOOT this is great news!" But on a larger scale maybe not so much.... So I raised some points as to how this could be bad for us as gamers too. I'm not saying I have all the answers, but that's never stopped me from asking questions or planning ahead for the potential "what if's". Two sides to every coin after all...

in the past I was, often, thinking about/from both sides in almost all discussions but I learnt that you only need one side and that's you when it comes to giant cooperations.
I'm not trying to be a smart... you know. So I'm sorry if I came out that way but I just want everyone to think about themselves first. Not that I can tell you what to do.

I just get the feeling, mostly from this forum, that a lot of people seem to give companies so much and almost nothing to themselves. I know how, for example, resale of games could be bad, but we haven't really seen HOW bad it could be for them and it might just be a drop in the waters for companies but a great lake for poor people! :D
Автор сообщения: Horrible Orbit
Already covered in the post you were quoting. Someone else is calling for a used game stamp, but I'm calling for (at least functionally) identical used copies. Copy identification/authentication DRM would serve the same purpose, after all.
That didn't work out too well for the Xbox One.
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Все обсуждения > Форумы Steam > Steam Discussions > Подробности темы
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