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Get minus points for giving a ticket for underlights during an accident investigation, causing an accident involving several pedestrians is not a crime, can give a ticket for drinking in public when the only crime i being drunk in public, carrying several human teeth or a throwing star is ok and not at all suspicious, having a gun or switchblade in the car counts as carrying an illegal weapon... Thats just from the top of my head.
Ingame, it is indeed the case that you can not tow the car if the insurance has expired - only when the car has been driven and you have witnessed the driver driving without a valid insurance.
Thanks for your feedback.
My situation that I ran into where this happened is I worked an accident between two vehicles. In process of my investigation and working the accident, I learned the vehicle had expired insurance. Though the vehicle was not rendered inoperable or not drivable by the in-game handbook, I cited the driver for having expired insurance (which was Justified) and then towed the vehicle (Unjustified). As the vehicle had been involved in an accident, there is enough evidence to support that the vehicle was being driven illegally and therefore in my belief probable cause existed to tow it.
Based on what you told me, are you saying that, based on the games mechanics, after clearing the accident scene and releasing the driver to leave, I should have then performed a traffic stop on them once I witnessed them drive the vehicle with expired insurance. Then I would have been justified in having the vehicle towed without taking a CP penalty?
Hey, I know the game has many variables that have programmed and accounted for. I've learned to not make a big deal about this particular issue and just overlook it, but I do feel like there should be a conversation with your liasons on the law and see if they agree.
No, that is not what the dev said. If you read the handbook, it tells you when you can have a car towed, and when you cannot. Driving without insurance is not a towable offense.
And in the scenario you describe above, if you pull someone over without probable cause, you will also lose CP points. Oh, and you also lose them if you taze the person asking for directions for some reason.
So why is it that I can tow a parked car for not having insurance, but I cannot tow a driven car for no insurance. Doesn't make any sense.
Sorry, but you are wrong and yes, you've been able to do this long before the latest update. There is no ticket to write for but you can tow a parked car for a number of things; no drivers license, no insurance, open warrant, expired plates and expired ID.
edit for clarity
Actually, yes, that is basically what he said. He said, an I'm quoting his post here:
Which is why I threw my scenario out there to see if it jived with what he explained. And for consistency's sake "expired and not valid" are one and the same. It means a vehicle is not insured.
Referencing the above quote from the developer, he said I could only tow the vehicle if I witness the driver operate the vehicle without valid insurance. Okay, I understand.
My scenario that I threw out, which was based on something I did in game myself, was based on what he advised. In game, I apparently can't tow a vehicle that's been involved in a motor vehicle accident and after learning it does not have insurance because I didn't witness the driver driving without insurance.
In order to have probable cause to tow it and not lose CP, referencing back to the above quote, I must release the driver and tell them they're free to go. Then, I must wait for them to drive off, and then I must perform a traffic stop on the vehicle for not having insurance. Now I'm able to tow it, with probable cause, for not having insurance because I witnessed the driver operate the vehicle without insurance.
This is not a realistic situation. Which is why I said what I did.
In a real situation, a motor vehicle involved in an accident with no insurance is subject to being towed. Vehicles are insured, not drivers. So it's not like the driver could call a friend to say "hey come drive my vehicle for me so it doesn't get towed." It works that way with drivers licenses though. Many times a passenger with a DL is allowed to drive a vehicle in a situation where the original driver was cited for not having a valid drivers license. However, no insurance is no insurance, a different driver doesn't change that.
Since a vehicle has been involved in an accident on a public road, the officer has probable cause to believe that the vehicle was operated illegally (referencing back to the fact in was involved in a wreck) and therefore justification should exist for towing.
This isn't about what the handbook says, I get what the handbook says, it's about if what the handbook says is correct. Which if you're going by realism, then no, I don't believe it is. Which is why I questioned getting hit with a CP penalty for towing a vehicle with no insurance after its been involved in a motor vehicle accident.
Witness and Probable Cause are not always one and the same. While witnessing an illegal act gives probable cause, probable cause can also be built on clear an convincing evidence without being a witness. Motor Vehicle Accident on a Public Road + No Vehicle Insurance = Probable Cause for Towing.
It doesn't matter what the law is somewhere else. Heck, here in Wyoming, no insurance is not a towable offense, even after an accident. Driving with no license may be towable offense here, but they generally let you find someone to drive the car instead, unless you are a jerk to them, then you are walking and watching your car on a tow truck.
So you say it doesn't matter what the hand book says. The handbook is the law of the land. The handbook shows you every law, and what you can and cannot do. There is no reality in the game, other than what the handbook says. Even across the US, the laws vary way too much to try to cater to everyone. So the devs have to come up with a standard, a set law. Is this a towable offense? Once they develop that, they write it out in the handbook.
Here in Wyoming, having any amount marijuana is still a jailable offense. Should I get mad that the game allows people to have up to an ounce? Or should I just accept that it is their game, their laws. As long as the rules are clearly written for me to understand what I can or cannot do, and what the laws are, I have no problem with coming to "their" reality. Because they have done such an amazing job with spelling it out for us.
The handbook feels like the old handbook that came with the original police quest game. The book tells you to walk around your car before you get in it and inspect it. If you fail to do so, when you start it, it turns out there is a bomb under it. But there is never a bomb on it when you inspect it, lol.
The developer did say the vehicle could be towed for not having insurance, if I "witnessed" them driving. I did confirm again, that I can Justifiably tow a car for not having insurance if I perform a traffic stop and find they don't have valid insurance, I was also Justified in issuing a ticket for Not Having Valid Insurance. The initial traffic stop detainment was for Running a Red Light.
So the law in game for towing a vehicle for not having insurance exists, it just requires that I "witness" the driver driving. I don't see this mentioned in the handbook, but it does show as Justified having it towed in the Reports menu.
But in a Motor Vehicle Accident, I can give the driver a citation for not having insurance (Justified) even if I didn't witness them driving, but I can't tow their vehicle because I didn't witness them driving as it would be Unjustified.
If no insurance was only a ticketable offense, with no exceptions, then I would agree with what you're saying. Just like your marijuana argument. I have no issues with it as it's consistent. If the developers will remove the Justification to tow a vehicle in a traffic stop for not having insurance, then my argument is moot as now a vehicle cannot be towed for not having insurance at any point and becomes consistent across the board.
Yeah, there's a number of things in this game that have a separation between reality and game mechanics. Unfortunately, this is one of those game mechanics/coding limitations. You can't tow the vehicle from an accident unless either of two conditions are met. You have arrested the driver, or the vehicle is completely disabled. Might be able to for an expired registration, not sure. I'm not normally finding anyone with an expired registration that isn't drunk, high (or both), or handing me their father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate's license.