Triumph advice request (Let's Cook)

[Zero, Dark Knight]

Umbra/Alchemist.

1e6 (Million) memories.
About 500k of the points spent in profits and the rest in utility
All gear is legendary, around 15 in Enchants with Resonator ring.
Can craft buffs freely.

- just finished Eternal Student a few days ago, was relatively painless.
Have finished every other class triumph except for Umbra/Alchem, and Necro/Druid (if that matters). Haven't finished many other triumphs - wanted the class things out of the way first.

Figured it's good chance to go from 300>500 with Umbra/Alchemist.

Got to e465 mysteries with Alchemist, using summoning set and gear with Ent pet.
but then the profits seemed to just stop.
Switched to Umbra, but he struggles to get above 455 after 3 hours of build up. Which is obviously far lower than Alchemists 465's.

Firstly, the guides for Alchemist class aren't really helping, already looked at them.
Secondly, the Umbra guide is confusing.
-

I'm just not sure how to get from 465>500, there's very little information and the stuff that does mention is vague, unhelpful "It's easy" "it took me 2 days".

Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks!

[pac230]

I can go into more detail, but it seems like you are not very familiar with either class, so I'll just give a general outline for each of them to begin with:

Alchemist has three main stages:

1. Cast Anima Synteta a lot with Spellhound as pet to level it. This will boost the power of Pet Elixir
2. Switch to Voidterror and level it up while running Pet Elixir
3. Switch to Summoning Elixir and generate some profits (still with Voidterror)

In your post you say you were using Ent and Summoning Eff gear, but Alchemist only uses two Summons on its profit spell panel, so this won't be very effective. I'd recommend items that boost Profits, or Click/Autoclick Profit.

Umbramancer has two main stages:

1. Build up Liquid Shadow while running Arcanaworg (in order to generate enough Shards to continually cast Day into Night)
2. Switch pet to Ebonsand Behemoth, level it up, and make profits

[Zero, Dark Knight]

Hello Pac! I've enjoyed reading some of the other triumph posts you've made.
Indeed, not familiar with these 2 classes, at all. To the point that when the guides say things like "Wisdom > Intelligence > Insight" etc it's just.. "but how much?"

Do you have a stat priority (attributes)?
That's what has been giving me the most trouble I feel.

For either Alchemist or Umbra?
Like 150 Int, 150 Spellcraft, etc. Even if not exact, just a rough estimate.

I have about 1100 attribute points to work with.

Secondly, are the gear lists in those guides accurate/good enough to reach 500?

And do you suggest Alchemist or Umbra for the achievement?

[pac230]

I think in this case either of the two can do the Triumph.

As for stats --

Umbramancer

Ignore Wisdom, Insight and Patience (you might take 50 Patience as requirement for XP items).

Should be able to max out all the others. Any points after that can go to Insight, or Wisdom if you can reach the 150/200/250 bonuses.

Alchemist

Ignore Wisdom and Spellcraft (you might take enough Spellcraft to use Nethershell (60) and one or two other items at 75).

Should be able to max out the others except Patience, which is probably the least important (but again does want at least 50 points for XP gear).

[Zero, Dark Knight]

Thank you.
I shall try that then.

It may take a while to get back to you as these classes need time buiding up their perks and spells. 😋

[Zero, Dark Knight]

So far: Couldn't make Umbra work

Struggling, even with spending reset points to find an attribute set up which works.
250 spellcraft, mastery, empathy,
150 int,
50 in patience

Was playing around with the remaining points:
Conclusion is:

Umbra's profit spell worked off auto click bonuses, but having Dominance tree means the loss of Intelligence tree - which is a huge profit loss.
and having Intelligence tree means no Dominance tree - which is a huge profit loss.

both trees (but not at the same time due to point limitation) created the tiniest trickle of mysteries, but very quickly became unsustainable due to the Umbramancers weapon draining shadow upon being used.

the profits did reach mysteries gaining e465 again but it wasn't much better than that, definitely not worth the weeks it would take to crawl up to 500 at that rate, possibly months even.

haven't tried Alchemist yet

[pac230]

Originally posted by Zero, Dark Knight:

Umbra's profit spell worked off auto click bonuses, but having Dominance tree means the loss of Intelligence tree - which is a huge profit loss.
and having Intelligence tree means no Dominance tree - which is a huge profit loss.

Dominance is okay for Umbramancer, but not required. Note that most of its milestone bonuses do nothing (most Dominance milestones boost Critical Profit, but Seethe in Shadows only scales off click/autoclick bonuses and crit bonuses do nothing for it). It's nice that Dominance works for the class at all (and is a 3% per point attribute), but it's less important than Int (which is required for a lot of items, of course), Spellcraft, Mastery, Empathy.

both trees (but not at the same time due to point limitation) created the tiniest trickle of mysteries, but very quickly became unsustainable due to the Umbramancers weapon draining shadow upon being used.

Black Blade does not drain Liquid Shadow. If you're finding that your Liquid Shadow is being used up too fast, this may be down to mismanagement of the Umbral Rage spell.

However, by e400 Mysts, you should be building up a lot more Liquid Shadow than you can hope to spend anyway (even with Umbral Rage's effect stacking up) before switching over pets. Summoning Efficiency (Onyx Hound) and Evocation Efficiency help build up more Liquid Shadow.

[Zero, Dark Knight]

Is it not an automatic spell, that has 2 conditions?
1
: When Evocation spell is cast, refreshes duration of Umbral Rage. When refreshed duration, add % to <cost of other spells> and add % value to <spell type>

and

2
: When manually clicking orb. <Reset spells to base cost> and <Reset % boost to <spell type to base>>?

That's all the spell does, how can it be "Mismanaged" and what's the correct way to use it?

[pac230]

I'm not sure, as I read that Umbral Rage was recently changed, and I haven't used it since then.

Last I knew, it increases the cost of other spells. This includes Liquid Shadow cost, which can cause that to escalate, draining more Liquid Shadow than intended.

However, by the number of Mysts you've reached, it should be possible to produce far more Liquid Shadow than you can consume even with Umbral Rage running at maximum (and in fact, you would use Umbral Rage intentionally in build-up because of this).

BTW, if you have all Legendary items, you may be able to switch things up during build-up so that you are getting most of your Liquid Shadow from entities rather than from casting Day into Night a lot. This is much less demanding in terms of Shards, making it possible to run Ebonsand Behemoth during build-up as well (no need for Arcanaworg).

[Delreich]

Originally posted by Zero, Dark Knight:

That's all the spell does, how can it be "Mismanaged" and what's the correct way to use it?

The tricky part is getting as many evocation casts as you can before idle kicks in. Pre-burst by clicking out of idle with rage going and all the evocation you can support on reckless, then switch to burst spells with a (few) second(s) left of non-idle. Use the idle-delaying ring if (and only if) you don't swap item sets.

[Zero, Dark Knight]

Couldn't work it out and over night build up wasn't much better...

Thanks for the help but, between struggling for hours and playing around with saves to test out different attributes to find out exacts, and not being sure on which gears to use, etc.

I just decided it's a sunken cost fallacy at this point.

Ended up giving up on the "Let's Cook" as both classes were just causing me stress, I will one realm in the future with more points and profits and delusions, go back to it and earn it.

but it just wasn't fun for me and learning a whole classes gimmick just for e35 mysteries wasn't worth it, and I didn't have enough spare green dust to craft enough catalysts to brute force it.

Thanks again for your help and I did learn something, but as seems to be the sentiment in some other posts I've seen.

"I won't touch the classes again."
--and if the devs end up reading this post and looking for useful information about what was confusing
Here's a small breakdown.

Umbramancer :
The spells are too confusing, and the wording on them is written weirdly, the spell interactions with each other are odd, and it's not clear how you're meant to use his primary spell (Umbral Rage) it's also extremely unclear which pet he's supposed to be using and which stat (Attribute) priorities he's supposed to have.

His own gear (the shadow stuff, especially the ring.) seems to hurt his progress because it's all unclear and its extra 1 minute time doesn't really add anything, or if it does, then this is what I've been saying about the confusion.

He also seems to have multiple spells which make his stats do strange interactions.
He has no void mana, which seems to make void mana and insight useless, but then his spell makes shadow act like void mana.

It's not clear what pet he's supposed to use, or what he's supposed to use, do, or "be". Maybe it is to you. but I'm not you.

--
With the Alchemist.

this class I had a lot of fun with, but as said in an earlier post.
I think the fact you added a "Summoning Elixir" and his lack of spells with his "good" spells being summoning, gives the impression he's supposed to go down the "Summon path".

My initial thought is that "Hungerer" is his pet, as it consumes buildings and gets buildings for free.
but I found Ent was superior because it buffs Summoning. Was this wrong? I don't know.
but using the pet Elixir seemed more like a chore. and swapping cauldrons seemed slow - having to turn off all my spells every time I wanted to swap them.

Maybe the player buttons could be made to have priority over spells putting things in. It's just more clicks (6 turn off all auto casts, 1 dismiss current elixir, 5 more elixir parts in, then reload the spell list 2 keys, then 1 to activate the elixir, or 6 click the auto casts back on).
That's a lot of buttons just for a key function of a class. :) it could be cut down to 7 if you just give player priority over the red/blue/green.

- Hope it helps.

Thanks again for the advice Pac, and Delreich.

[phenir]

Originally posted by Zero, Dark Knight:

Umbramancer :
The spells are too confusing, and the wording on them is written weirdly, the spell interactions with each other are odd, and it's not clear how you're meant to use his primary spell (Umbral Rage) it's also extremely unclear which pet he's supposed to be using and which stat (Attribute) priorities he's supposed to have.

His own gear (the shadow stuff, especially the ring.) seems to hurt his progress because it's all unclear and its extra 1 minute time doesn't really add anything, or if it does, then this is what I've been saying about the confusion.

He also seems to have multiple spells which make his stats do strange interactions.
He has no void mana, which seems to make void mana and insight useless, but then his spell makes shadow act like void mana.

It's not clear what pet he's supposed to use, or what he's supposed to use, do, or "be". Maybe it is to you. but I'm not you.

I think you're overthinking it with umbral rage. Sure, you can minmax it by using the +1 minute ring but eventually you will hit a cap that you just can't support more casts because of the costs.
Most classes scale with nearly all attributes, except maybe one or two usually dominance, spellcraft, and/or wisdom. Just in umbramancer's case, it's patience and wisdom (kind of, more wisdom = more evocation casts for rage).

Isn't his own gear basically bis for him? Hueg offline enchants and buffs shadow generation. Hard to beat 30% enchant.

I don't see the problem with him having something that enables him to take advantage of void stats even without void mana. Exorcist does the same thing.

I think it's pretty clear that the one pet that does basically nothing for the other classes because it buffs offline profits, would be THE pet for the one class that benefits from offline profits.

It's a shame you quit so close to the goal.

[Delreich]

Originally posted by phenir:

I think you're overthinking it with umbral rage. Sure, you can minmax it by using the +1 minute ring but eventually you will hit a cap that you just can't support more casts because of the costs.

Cost increase caps at ~108x, so it shouldn't be too much of an issue. Effect scales with square root of casts though, so an extra minute isn't all that much.

[Zero, Dark Knight]

Originally posted by phenir:

It's a shame you quit so close to the goal.

- to the rest of your post too:

Yeah, perhaps it's a shame, but my main goal for the realm was Eternal Student which I grabbed anyway 😋 I'm more than happy to go back to it later when I have a better understand and easier time with it, it's just a game for fun and it wasn't fun, I got from 300>465 so I know it can be done in future too.

but for now.
Happily making progress as an Archon to go push more realm points. might grab a 4th delusion point in Arcanist realm after. Feigned Nobility rank 2 looks reaaaaally good.
...

To the points about the spell and ring and stuff, they're just my thoughts. They might be wrong. They might be right.

I'm not the most clever person and the spells don't make a whole lot of sense to me, nor is it clear why Ebonsand is better than say - Voidterror. Nor why Ebonsand is better than Archivist, or Leykeeper.

Is it? "yes" but if the 'why' isn't understood then it's not teaching, it's just using the profits. and considering I was struggling with the fact of "How do I make profit." "What stats do I need." "What gear helps me." It's okay to say what and stuff.

but the 'why' is equally important.

and in that sense, spells and the pet don't do a good job in teaching you "Why" they work, only "That" they work.

[pac230]

Originally posted by Zero, Dark Knight:

I'm not the most clever person and the spells don't make a whole lot of sense to me, nor is it clear why Ebonsand is better than say - Voidterror. Nor why Ebonsand is better than Archivist, or Leykeeper.

Ebonsand Behemoth has two abilities that multiply production, and *both* of them scale with Pet Ability Power. (One linearly, one with the square-root.)

This means that if you had a x1,000,000 (1e6) Pet Ability Power bonus, with Ebonsand Behemoth it would be worth 1e9 in profits (1e6 from the first ability and 1e3/1,000 from the second (square root of 1M = 1K).

So, Pet Ability Power is extremely powerful with a pet like this, and that's its main advantage.

(Archivist also has two production bonuses, but its second one only scales with Pet Ability Power ^0.15.)

[phenir]

Basically, behemoth number bigger faster. I'm doing an exile right now that stacks a lot of idle profit enchant (about e25 difference in build up and burst idle bonus) and behemoth is still neck and neck with giant while in burst set but that is with just a quick 10s check. Other classes don't get to use it though because one of its boosts is to offline profits which the umbramancer benefits from even while online.
Really, you can just do a quick comparison and probably land on the right pet or "good enough". Equip burst set and just switch pets and see which one has the biggest numbers. Special consideration to make:
Risen giant scales with idle profit. Not relevant for umbramancer but for other classes this means idle profit increases mana profits by the square of its bonus, disregarding any other idle profit scaling going around (necromancer spells). Also scales a lot with time so letting it "grow" for like an hour should net a few exponents of profit or if your class has alternative methods of increasing its time like necro/shaman scythe or chronomancer/temporalist time skip.
Summoning and incantation efficiency get applied for each spell of that type on your bar, more or less depending on the given spell.
Pets with multiple profit boosting powers scale stronger with pet ability power as seen above, so consider how much stronger that pet might be if you leaned more into pet power.