Are there really no alternatives to Archon?

[Leroy]

I'm at e768 mysts and about 3e5 memories. The game was running over 7k hours - and yet I haven't found an alternative to Archon. Over 77% of my total playtime is Archon, just to give some numbers. After a realm change, I usually do 1-2 runs to unlock attributes and then use the Chronomancer to quickly get to e300 mysts where I switch to Archon, even though at this point there may technically be better options but I'don't care because it doesn't take much time to get e600 either way.

Over the time I now and then tried other t2 classes and followed several guides. Most of them are quite complex so I probably did something wrong and didn't get the perfect results. But still, I see no way to get the additional e100-e200 mana more that my archon has right after its basic setup, after like 10 minutes in a run. No matter what I do, once it gets about e600-e650 mysts, the Archon absolutely steamrolls everything else. The Archon is also very easy to maintain, so aside from the typical 3 item sets (training, void, boost), I only have 2 spell sets, one double used to build up void and boost by just changing 1 spell. So aside from a quite simple setup and quick bursts now and then, it doesn't need any attention.

So my question would be:

Can you recommend any other class that's not much more complicated in every day use and can definitly keep up with Archon or is even stronger?

I kinda feel stuck with Archon. ;-) I know it takes some time to learn and undestand a class, but seeing this big difference to the power of an Archon, I see no way to get there with another class, even if I put the time into learning it really and take persistence effects into account. I'm obviously talking about the myst range where you are going to hit some kind of "soft cap", so about 700 and higher, where you get nearly no regular upgrades anymore.

[pac230]

I am at around the same number of Mysts. I use all the T2 classes. Archon is not better than the rest.

Archon is good for fairly short (short by the standard of T2, that is) runs, as the main thing it has to do to grow its income is level its pet. Once that becomes very quick, it can climb up the Mysts quite rapidly during a realm. At the same time, you're building your Persistent. Eventually, Archon will slow down a lot, and longer runs only help so much as there are diminishing returns everywhere, but by that point you're probably getting a good number of Memories, so I can see why someone might stick with just Archon for a long time.

OTOH, Heretic is at least as fast, and Desolator is even faster at the Mysts climb. They do not build up a Persistent, but if you're going to be switching to a long build-up class later, that doesn't really matter.

Temporalist and Shaman are absolutely useless for quick runs, so shouldn't be used to climb Mysts, only switched to once you're beginning to cap out. Once you do so, you'll need to spend a long run building up their respective Persistent. Once that's done, they perform very well over multi-day runs.


Edit: As for how complicated they are, most are fairly straight-forward once you've figured them out and got them set up. Oni is probably the most technical.

[MrBall]

I understand your issue I'm at 9e5 (about to hit 1m) memories and hit e800+ mysts typically and do it all with Archon. I just have a hard time putting the 3-4 days into a run on a class just to SEE if it competes with Archon. I really should cause i've not been babysitting the game as much of late and letting archon run a couple days cause i'm too lazy to do an exile.

So much investment required to even explore other classes. Need the full item set need the full understanding and spell/gear configs and finally have to invest days into letting the class hit its stride.

[Leroy]

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. If it gets down to e1 or e2 per day and runs take 5-7 days, I do a realm change on the next weekend. I just wonder if I might get further with another class and I'd also like to run the Greater Chimaera during buildup for increased crafting dust income. And yeah, I also don't want to invest weeks of no progress just to confirm Archon is the best option. ;-) So when I follow a guide and do a setup for full 2h hours and a burst after this doesn't even get remotely close (with difference beeing e100 to e200mana) to what Archon has after 10 minutes and some simple setup steps, I doubt that this big difference only comes from mistakes I made or from the persistent bonus my Archon has. I mean I would need two more spell slots with some strong spells and proably still wouldn't be able to cover that e100+ difference.

In my test Temporalist and Shaman were also the worst though a Temporalist run can be used to obtain attribute points near the end of the realm run due to getting to a high character level. I also read the Desolator should be good but anything involving lliquid shadows just liquidifies my mind and leaves me confused. ;-) I tried it a while ago again and found it incredibly difficult to setup, with multiple phases and even repetitions of those just to not be even in sight of my archon after hours of pain. But I never could get into Umbramancer either. I think I'll give the Heretic another shot then, maybe Oni too. But indeed, if runs start to take weeks for tiny progress, it's just not worth it anymore.

[MrBall]

I get spoiled once i stop getting 6-8 from a 2 day run on archon i'm looking at realming.

Cause i'm lazy though what i end up doing is Respecing to full farm on my memories and AFK for over a week collecting crafting and enchanting dust. Then Respec full profit and using a few get memories to shoot up e20-30 more. Between all the dust/Cata and extra Mysts i get another 10k memories.
as worth as just realming? not likly but i'm lazy :D

Helps to have over 500 null cores

[pac230]

Originally posted by Leroy:

So when I follow a guide and do a setup for full 2h hours and a burst after this doesn't even get remotely close (with difference beeing e100 to e200mana) to what Archon has after 10 minutes and some simple setup steps, I doubt that this big difference only comes from mistakes I made or from the persistent bonus my Archon has.

I think it is just that you are very practised with Archon, and have optimised it a lot, vs inexperience with the other classes. I can assure you, they do all work.


Edit: And Liquid Shadows are not that complicated at all!

[pac230]

So, to give you an idea of the level of complexity involved (not too much), here is my current set up with Desolator:

Mode 1 - Level Spellhound
This is to boost Pet Elixir for later. (I think eventually Summoning Elixir becomes better for production, but I'm not there yet.)
Spells: Anima Synteta, Crystallisation, and whatever
Items: Collar of Obedience, Whiplash, +pet XP, +character ability power
Duration: About 5% of planned run time, at the start of the run

Mode 2 - Level Nix & cast Accumulators
Nix just builds XP with time, so all you can do is put on pet XP items and wait. While you wait, you can also fast-cast your Accumulated spells. Once Nix is adopted, don't switch pet again.
Spells: Void Fission, Eclipse, Condensed Energy, RoP + Transmute & Dark Draught to maintain sources
Items: Pet XP, Shadow-Scryers, -incant duration
Duration: About 60% of the run

Mode 3 - Build up Liquid Shadows
I have developed enough items that I can just use Shadow Entities, and don't need to cast Day Into Night.
Spells: Onyx Hound, Condensing Shadows, Condensed Energy + Transmute, Dark Draught and Crystallisation to stabilise sources
Items: +Shadow Entities and Liquid Shadow per entity, +character ability power
Elixir: Shadow
Duration: About 30% of the run

Mode 4 - Spend half my Liquid Shadows
Barely counts as a mode. Use Burn All That Burns to consume 50% of Liquid Shadows. (That may not be the exact best ratio, but some bonuses are based on current LS, and some on spent LS.)

Mode 5 - Production
Now to get some mana ...
Spells: Seethe in Shadows, RoP, Condensed Energy, Eclipse, Empower, Void Fission
Items: Regalia of Shadow set and other offline bonus items (good enchants!), whatever in other slots
Elixir: Pet
Duration: About 5% of planned run time


Except for not being able to go back to Mode 1, I can flick between these modes as I want for early- and mid-run production to get more upgrades, etc.

[Leroy]

@pac230: I'll try to mark this posting somehow because it's a lot more compact than the guides I read. But it confirmes what I expect from Desolator. You see, if I run an Archon, I do the setup in the evening, do a quick burst and trial stuff etc. in the morning, some more trials and otherwise set it to training. Then I work all day and in the evening I either do another short burst or start new run. For longer runs i might adjust the training setup a little but thats it! So if I switch to a class the requires 5 phases with specific timings, it should better be worth the effort. ;-) Also as mentioned I'd like to do something with the Chimaera.

@Mr. Ball: Yeah, I'm lazy too and alsso use respecs though I was never nowhere near 500 cores. But still, I think there's a balance issue if Archon has by far the best ratio of invested playtime vs. progress gain. I also hoped that one day that "offline bonus" would actually allow for an offline style, even if not the best but at least possible. Instead it's just another profit multiplier that only can be used a by one class type. :-(

[pac230]

Originally posted by Leroy:

@pac230: I'll try to mark this posting somehow because it's a lot more compact than the guides I read. But it confirmes what I expect from Desolator. You see, if I run an Archon, I do the setup in the evening, do a quick burst and trial stuff etc. in the morning, some more trials and set it to training. Then I work all day and in the evening I either do another short burst or start new run. So if I switch to a class the requires 5 phases with specific timings, it should better be worth the effort. ;-) Also as mentioned I'd like to do something with the Chimaera.

There are no specific timings. The durations listed are just estimates. You can leave it running for as long as you want in Mode 2 or Mode 3 without intervention.

As for results: Desolator is just stupidly fast at climbing up Mysts. During my current realm, I don't think there was a single run that went over 24 hours until e700, and every run got at least e10 more Mysts (mostly e25-30). At lower Mysts, you can skip Mode 2 completely (just relying on base Accumulated Spells bonus) and get vast profits in no time at all.

Chimaera ... Shaman doesn't use it as Herald has multiple pet time bonuses. Heretic doesn't use it (well, it could, but build-up would be significantly weaker than with Interrogator/Archivist). Desolator can, actually, even if it's not optimal, as Nix mainly scales off run time rather than pet time (worse E200 bonus might the biggest impact). Temporalist needs long-term commitment to Mechanos to get results. For Chimaera use I think your best bet is Oni: but if 4/5 different set-ups with Desolator seems like too much, then you are not going to get on well with Oni. :(

[MrBall]

Yeah to be fair with over 100k Memories almost every class flys to e700 Myst the bonus profits from Memories break the basic upgrade scaling HARD so you hardly slow down until e1500 mana when regular upgrades kinda stop. This means you really have to apples to apples compare at the point when your gains taper out (for me around E780 or so when 2 days don't get me e10) and give each class about a week.

But the issue is if you've missed even one main component (such as not realizing an entire scaling type) the whole run is completely bust and not a fair comparison but its tough to know if you've hit every facet. Archon is simple its got one pet so no pet swap its got one set of simple scaling spells (JASM + accumulates) then standard VM+Burst.

Every other class has more than one function that creates its multipliers. Archon has get 10k VE and spam JASM till you are bored.
Shaman Autoclicks + time + idles (likely simplest but very time dependant)
Oni Tons of accumulated build up and pet leveling
Heretic VM +HC balencing
Desolator LS built/Spent/Sources consumed

[pac230]

No argument about Archon being the simplest.

However, while climbing up the Mysts, it's only medium speed, as it has to level its pet to certain break-points, and get Missile Storm going a certain amount. Desolator and Heretic are noticeably faster. (Oni might be too, or about the same speed, but it's harder work, for sure.)

When you're capping out, Archon's long-term growth is okay. Once you've hit the last pet mile-stone, there's not all that much more growth to be had. Certainly once you're going to week-long runs you would be better off switching to Temporalist (which is also extremely simple to operate).

Archon is an easy-to-use middle way, good if you don't have the Disenchantment and Nullifier Cores built up yet to switch to another class.

[MrBall]

I might be spoiled at 900k Memories cause i get to e500 so fast i never suffer from waiting on the pet to get to its breakpoint

[pac230]

Originally posted by Mr. Ball:

I might be spoiled at 900k Memories cause i get to e500 so fast i never suffer from waiting on the pet to get to its breakpoint

e500 is before T3 pets, so it's not really the stage I was talking about.

[MrBall]

I don't even notice its like e30-40 in 30m until right before you unlock the Memetics for Catalysts which is e650 thats what i get for just trying to remember it off the top of my head :P

[Leroy]

Thanks guys, that's exactly the input I wanted to get from others who have a better overview of what other classes can do. I always wanted to try the other T2 classes more but Archon was just to good, so I always gave up after some days. ;-) When I got to T2 I thought I'd be using Temporalist but even with weeklong runs I can't get near to a fresh Archon. Just did the level 270 milestone which took definitly several days, maybe not a full weak but the burst result was not impressive at all, even considering I had not the optimal pet for that (Chimaera gives a higher character level for some reason).

Btw. once I get to e900 mysts and said "hello" to the final god, I'll probably call the game "done" und move on. ;-)

[MrBall]

Yeah i felt the same i thought temporalist would be awesome and was not impressed in the same scenario