Hogwart's Legacy's amazing combat system

[Snobby Hobo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SumghHxbkQ

[Snobby Hobo]

If there's any audience for it I kind of what to make a small video essay on how many things this combat system solves that I find in similar games. It is too easy, even with my self-imposed rules of no potions (including healing), no overpowered talents and no gear upgrades but damn does it do a fine job at communicating and staying dynamic.

The game designers at Avalanche studios should be proud of what they achieved. Call me crazy but this model could blow the souls games out of the water if it was given time to mature. I really hope they get the chance to follow up on it.

[That_Jeff]

Worth mentioning that there are very useful information on the field guide on how to exploit some enemies weakeness, for instance, using flipendo on the Troll when he smacks the ground to make the club hit his own face. Also the consumables are really powerful. Specially the plants.

Or... you can just avada kedavra everything and kill all the fun alongside your enemies. xD

[Snobby Hobo]

Originally posted by That_Jeff:

Worth mentioning that there are very useful information on the field guide on how to exploit some enemies weakeness, for instance, using flipendo on the Troll when he smacks the ground to make the club hit his own face. Also the consumables are really powerful. Specially the plants.

Or... you can just avada kedavra everything and kill all the fun alongside your enemies. xD

I'm aware of all those. This is about the design of the combat system. I'm deliberately avoiding all potions (including healing) and all plants. I'm also deliberately staying at low level gear with no upgrades and avoiding talents I perceive as "too strong" (break armor, enhanced combat roll and many more). Needless to say I won't use cursed spells either, but I do use the curse mark as combo starter.

My goal is to highlight how good this combat system is when not polluted by all the tangential mechanics that just trivialize it.

[Snobby Hobo]

Seems my love for game design is not widely shared :(

[EchoPlexy]

Originally posted by Incredibly average:

Seems my love for game design is not widely shared :(

I's shared by me :) I think one of it's strengths is the variation in spells and combos means I'm not mashing the same offensives every enemy, I actually get to be creative in how and what I make use of, and I like that some thought should be given to how you arrange their order for utmost effectiveness. My one quibble would be the jankiness of the pc port for spell sets.

[Snobby Hobo]

Originally posted by EchoPlexy:

Originally posted by Incredibly average:

Seems my love for game design is not widely shared :(

I's shared by me :) I think one of it's strengths is the variation in spells and combos means I'm not mashing the same offensives every enemy, I actually get to be creative in how and what I make use of, and I like that some thought should be given to how you arrange their order for utmost effectiveness. My one quibble would be the jankiness of the pc port for spell sets.

I agree. It took me a while and a lot of experimenting before I got something to properly work.

Ended up opting for exactly 1 additional spell set, then using a single button to alternate between them, allowing me to use 8 spells seamlessly in combat. But it's still horrible when I have to use the gimmick spells like Repairo.

[katzenkrimis]

A self-handicap of no healing? On hard difficulty?

Nobody would ever finish the game.

That one spider fight to find Deek's friend. The final two boss fights.

No healing? Are you kidding?

[Snobby Hobo]

Originally posted by katzenkrimis:

A self-handicap of no healing? On hard difficulty?

Nobody would ever finish the game.

That one spider fight to find Deek's friend. The final two boss fights.

No healing? Are you kidding?

I completed the game, without healing, without potions, without plants, without upgrading my gear, without traits on hard. I also stopped using talents after level 12 or so, as I deliberately avoided talents I considered too strong (the better combat roll being the primary offender). Believe it or not, but I still struggled a lot more with Elden Ring (Malenia took me a legendary 34 tries).

The reason I did is because I wanted to see the combat shine for what it is. It's a very clever system and it communicates with the player exceptionally well. Where I found it pretty hard to continue in the souls games I never felt "cheated" (except one instance, but those are big spoilers) in Hogwarts Legacy.

[Harris]

Originally posted by Incredibly average:

Seems my love for game design is not widely shared :(

I love the combat in HL, but I have to say your post is very self-conscious - it's an essay. And it's ironic that you're using such verbage, because your point is academic - as in, has little practical value.

Yes, if you look at this combat system in a vacuum, it's pretty cool. If you try hard enough and limit yourself at everything it can even feel like a souls-game cosplayer. Or, at the very least, you'll be guaranteed to spend 10 minutes on a bullet sponge troll and try not to fall asleep in the process.

But the elephant in the room is - nothing exists in a vacuum. Talents are overpowered and trivialize combat. Potions and overpovered and trivialize combat. Plants are overpowevered and trivialize combat. Certain spells are.. you get it.

I actually like the fact there's few spells and few enemies because each of them is meaningful, is distinctive enough, has its own niche use case. But this is also of little practical value - I did not even bother with enemies weaknesses on my first run. I never needed to. You can perfectly kill a troll without Flipendo-ing the club into its face - and your video essay is a testimony to that.

I suggest you adopt an exact opposite approach just for a second, and have a bird's eye view of the game. It has some great ideas, concepts, systems - but all of them are ultimately neither here nor there as they did not get enough time and enough budget to become what they should've been in terms of content, balance and polish.

[Snobby Hobo]

Originally posted by Harris:

Originally posted by Incredibly average:

Seems my love for game design is not widely shared :(

I love the combat in HL, but I have to say your post is very self-conscious - it's an essay. And it's ironic that you're using such verbage, because your point is academic - as in, has little practical value.

Yes, if you look at this combat system in a vacuum, it's pretty cool. If you try hard enough and limit yourself at everything it can even feel like a souls-game cosplayer. Or, at the very least, you'll be guaranteed to spend 10 minutes on a bullet sponge troll and try not to fall asleep in the process.

But the elephant in the room is - nothing exists in a vacuum. Talents are overpowered and trivialize combat. Potions and overpovered and trivialize combat. Plants are overpowevered and trivialize combat. Certain spells are.. you get it.

I actually like the fact there's few spells and few enemies because each of them is meaningful, is distinctive enough, has its own niche use case. But this is also of little practical value - I did not even bother with enemies weaknesses on my first run. I never needed to. You can perfectly kill a troll without Flipendo-ing the club into its face - and your video essay is a testimony to that.

I suggest you adopt an exact opposite approach just for a second, and have a bird's eye view of the game. It has some great ideas, concepts, systems - but all of them are ultimately neither here nor there as they did not get enough time and enough budget to become what they should've been in terms of content, balance and polish.

I'm not sure why you assume such a hostile tone. It's very obvious from my self imposed constraints I entirely agree with you.

Almost everything this game does outside the core combat mechanics takes away from it, and that's a big shame. It feels like it is the result of everyone in the team kinda pitching in, and consequently having the fundamentals buried. I'm pretty sure I've used the analogy before but: babymode Doom Eternal vs Ultra Nightmare Doom Eternal are completely different games.

Glad you engaged constructively though, it was what I was hoping for. I really kind of what to make a video essay about this game at some point. The combat system is genuinely unique, but almost nobody gets to experience it because of the reasons you mentioned.

[IrishUnicorn]

It is a good combat system for a game designed for casual players, it would have no place in souls or games considering difficult, I could see a dueling multiplayer game using a polished version of it, but I very much doubt it would be enticing outside of casual audience.

Outside of that I do think that they did a good job with it in this game, while many parts of Hogwarts Legacy lack polish and depth, the combat system itself is designed very well for what kind of game it is.

[Theta]

Originally posted by Incredibly average:

If there's any audience for it I kind of what to make a small video essay on how many things this combat system solves that I find in similar games. It is too easy, even with my self-imposed rules of no potions (including healing), no overpowered talents and no gear upgrades but damn does it do a fine job at communicating and staying dynamic.

The game designers at Avalanche studios should be proud of what they achieved. Call me crazy but this model could blow the souls games out of the water if it was given time to mature. I really hope they get the chance to follow up on it.

Not even close to souls like. Youre just pressing the buttons it tells you to. You dont have to judge spacing or timing. It tells you when to dodge and block.
Theres like 0 builds. You can get all the good talents in one playthrough.
Youd have to take away most of what they give you to make it as fun as you want it to be.

[Snobby Hobo]

Originally posted by ProestUnicorn:

It is a good combat system for a game designed for casual players, it would have no place in souls or games considering difficult, I could see a dueling multiplayer game using a polished version of it, but I very much doubt it would be enticing outside of casual audience.

Outside of that I do think that they did a good job with it in this game, while many parts of Hogwarts Legacy lack polish and depth, the combat system itself is designed very well for what kind of game it is.

Which is a baseless comment unfortunately. Also the idea that this game would work for dueling is hilariously wrong. Almost nothing this game offers would befit a PvP game. Juggling and chaining combinations is a huge part of HL, not to mention environmental weaponry and transformations. None of those things translate to PvP.

[Snobby Hobo]

Originally posted by Theta:

Originally posted by Incredibly average:

If there's any audience for it I kind of what to make a small video essay on how many things this combat system solves that I find in similar games. It is too easy, even with my self-imposed rules of no potions (including healing), no overpowered talents and no gear upgrades but damn does it do a fine job at communicating and staying dynamic.

The game designers at Avalanche studios should be proud of what they achieved. Call me crazy but this model could blow the souls games out of the water if it was given time to mature. I really hope they get the chance to follow up on it.

Not even close to souls like. Youre just pressing the buttons it tells you to. You dont have to judge spacing or timing. It tells you when to dodge and block.
Theres like 0 builds. You can get all the good talents in one playthrough.
Youd have to take away most of what they give you to make it as fun as you want it to be.

Unfortunately the souls cultists have found there way in now it seems. But I don't expect you to see what I am pointing at anyway.

My biggest gripe with the souls franchise is that it has an incredibly dense layer of artificial difficulty in the form of visual ambiguity. Souls players love it, because it can only be crossed with excessive experience - and the latter allows them to pretend to be "better" and have "gotten gud" over "casuals". Unfortunately it's just a ruse; the challenge comes from literally bashing your head against the wall until it breaks down. And that's coming from someone who has bested all but maybe 3 or 4 bosses in all souls games (except Bloodborne because I couldn't play it).

[Theta]

Originally posted by Incredibly average:

Originally posted by Theta:

Not even close to souls like. Youre just pressing the buttons it tells you to. You dont have to judge spacing or timing. It tells you when to dodge and block.
Theres like 0 builds. You can get all the good talents in one playthrough.
Youd have to take away most of what they give you to make it as fun as you want it to be.

Unfortunately the souls cultists have found there way in now it seems. But I don't expect you to see what I am pointing at anyway.

My biggest gripe with the souls franchise is that it has an incredibly dense layer of artificial difficulty in the form of visual ambiguity. Souls players love it, because it can only be crossed with excessive experience - and the latter allows them to pretend to be "better" and have "gotten gud" over "casuals". Unfortunately it's just a ruse; the challenge comes from literally bashing your head against the wall until it breaks down. And that's coming from someone who has bested all but maybe 3 or 4 bosses in all souls games (except Bloodborne because I couldn't play it).

lol. Im a souls cultist because Im saying youre wrong?
You can watch the enemies visual cues for when theyre going to attack in souls games. You have to learn them or stay away from them and attack at range.
Youre comparing that with the countless builds and ways to tackle an enemy... to this? lol.
Basically guitar hero with a wand. It tells you exactly what to do.