Muggles vs. Wizards. Let's end this debate. (P2)

[The Former]

(This is part 2 of a very long post that couldn't fit into one topic. For the first part, click here.)

Operations On Land

Tactical Operations

The short overview here is that Muggle Britain's ability to fight battles depends entirely on two factors: The element of surprise, and numerical saturation. I say numbers for obvious reason, and I say surprise because I firmly believe that a muggle army, overall, would have difficulty pinning down a tactical team of wizards without it.

Why do I say this? There are a few factors:

Muggle weaponry has limitations. Jamming, wear and tear, recoil, and materiel consumption all contribute to the course of a battle. A wizard's weapon, the wand, is largely unaffected by all of these (apart from wear and tear, to some extent).

Wizards are inscrutable. As we established, there's no reliable way for muggles to comprehend the plethora of methods utilized by wizards. There are so many potential spells that learning any number of their methods would never be enough to predict a wizard's tactics.

There are too many ways to counter muggle weaponry with magic. Allow me to quote a post I made elsewhere:

Lockfågel, Paradoxriddaren původně napsal:

Magic has limitations, but new spells can and have been invented. I'm sure wizards have considered the necessity to protect themselves from guns in a worst case scenario, it probably jumped to mind back in 1450.

White Wolf's Mage TTRPG series reveals several ways this might work. For instance, preventing combustion. Displacement illusions. Inflicting blindness. Magnetic repulsion from the mage. There are dozens upon dozens of ways to render guns completely useless using magic, all a wizard would have to do is invent the spell... And that's not even touching on all the spells that already do the job in the Harry Potter universe.

Neither is magic "slow" nor "vulnerable". Consider this: The fastest draws in the world can draw and put an accurate shot on an apple at very close range in 0.75 seconds. The accuracy isn't really the question here, it's the draw speed.

If the fastest hands in the world require nearly a full second, we can assume that it would take at least a second and a half to draw a weapon and put accurate shots on target in most dangerous situations. This is why most people, especially those with training, will rush to cover before attempting to return fire.

A wizard under threat could take cover, draw his wand, and utter the phrase "Aqua Eructo" in little time at all. A powerful gush of water could render further incoming fire ineffective, and the stream could easily be tuned into a cutting jet if required.

Just one of many ways to handle it. Let's look at a few more that already exist in-universe:

• Sonorus. This short and sweet charm could massively amplify the volume of gunfire to the point that it could be made to disorient the attacker.
  
• Aqua Eructo. I discussed this above.
  
• Arresto Momentum. This second-year charm could theoretically slow incoming bullets such that they lose their ability to penetrate, though the mechanics are a question. If each individual bullet would require its own casting this would be useless.
  
• Depulso. Another quick charm that could be used against things like grenades to send them away quickly.
  
• Avis. A cloud of birds is a great way to intercept gunfire and occlude the wizard, and those that made it through could confound the attacker long enough for the wizard to cast a more lengthy spell.
  
• Blue Sparks. This charm could be used to occlude the wizard and blind an attacker briefly, buying the wizard seconds.
  
• Bombarda. Cast upon the magazine of an attacker's weapon, this could trigger a dangerous explosion that would ruin all ammunition, the weapon, and the attacker's hand in an instant. Cast on carried grenades, the effect would be even worse.
  
• Caterwauling Charm. While not a direct counter, it could be used to pre-emptively protect a wizard at war from covert attacks that would negate any of these other methods.
  
• Concealment Charm. Could be cast on magazines or carried explosives to make it more difficult for an attacker to make use of them by concealing them from view.
  
• Confundo. Could be used either to confuse the attacker or, perhaps more usefully, to bewitch the gun and make it unwieldy.
  
• Containment Charm. Cast on the gun, it could prevent bullets from leaving the chamber, leading to dangerous malfunction that would surely ruin the weapon.
  
• Molliare. This cushioning charm could theoretically erect an invisible "sandbag" upon the wizard's clothes that would cause incoming fire to rapidly lose velocity when it hit a certain point.
  
• Tarantallegra. Not the best option, but tough to aim a weapon while you're getting down like it's Saturday Night Fever.
  
• Defensive Charms. The lore is vague on these, but in theory, a defensive charm could be developed to protect passively against high-velocity projectiles.
  
• Deprimo. Those hole-busting charm, cast with precision, could theoretically blast open the chamber of a gun and make it effectively useless.
  
• Diminuendo. Shrinking the ammunition in a gun would greatly hinder its ability to operate effectively. Shrinking the gun itself would likewise make it useless to the attacker.
  
• Expelliarmus. Can't fire if it's not in your hands.
  
• Disillusionment Charm. Cast on the wizard's clothing, this would make it extremely difficult to aim effectively. Cast on the wizard himself, it would make aiming all but impossible.
  
• Engorgio. The opposite of Diminuendo would be no less effective. Causing the gun to massively grow in bulk would render it impossible to wield, and would likely cause it to break apart. Casting it on the ammunition inside would likewise render it inoperable, as the weapon would no longer cycle properly. An Enlargement Charm would have a similar effect in both cases.
  
• Epoximise. Cast on bullets and their magazine, this would prevent the weapon from cycling new ammunition, rendering the whole magazine effectively useless. Another cast to bind the magazine to the weapon would render the weapon itself ruined.
  
• Incendio. Cast upon either the target or the magazine, it would be an excellent answer to an attacker with a gun.
  
• Fixing Charm. Cast on the firing mechanism of a weapon, the bullet in the chamber, the trigger, or an active safety, this would render a firearm effectively inoperable.

There are so many more spells, I've only gotten partway through "F". The point is, with mere seconds of time, a wizard could eliminate the threat posed by a gun-toting attacker.

In summary, the element of surprise would be crucial... and as you'll recall, wizards hold a firm advantage in the field of both intel and counter-intel. Actionable intel on the wizarding forces would be exceedingly rare, which would make ambushes nigh impossible but for sheer luck and lack of an alarm spell.

For this reason, I believe that overall, Magical Britain has the tactical advantage. However, it is a tenuous one that could be overturned swiftly if the wizards aren't careful in the way they fight and when they retreat.

Should Muggle Britain's fighting forces have sufficient numbers and overrun them quickly enough and in the right way, they could quickly turn a dangerous situation into an overwhelming victory, albeit not without some losses.

Strategic Operations

I think that if wizard Britain could assert a clear and obvious logistical advantage, this would be somewhat easy to call. However, as established, their inability to control the waterways would make this an impossible task. There's only so much advantage you can glean from magicked containers.

Likewise, Britain's army would have the advantage of an organized command structure trained and equipped for war at this scale. This would make their movements much more efficient overall than those of Wizard Britain. Of course, some of this would be dampened by their general lack of intel. Being able to deploy efficiently is only so useful if you don't know how you should deploy.

In other words, each side has a clear strategic advantage that's largely negated by the capabilities of the opponent.

I will say this for Britain: The campaign they wage would probably not be too dissimilar to what they faced in the Middle East. The wizarding forces would utilize guerrilla methods to try and stay one step ahead, and would never seek for a pitched battle. This is something the British Army of today has already cut their teeth doing.

Of course, although familiar territory, the style of asymmetrical warfare employed by wizards would be rather different. Magicked terrain, arcane fog, apparition... There are things that the British Army simply wouldn't be able to counter with the methods they used in the Middle East.

Overall, I think the slight advantage goes to Muggle Britain.

---

Conclusion

Remembering our standard for what it is that each side hopes to achieve, the question we must ask is this: In light of the above considerations, would the British Army be able to force the wizards to capitulate to their control?

The answer, I believe, is NO.

This conflict would drag on for decades before either side even started making a dent in the other's capabilities. Note that this also applies if Muggle Britain shifts its goal to eradication. Wizardkind simply has too many ways of escaping sticky situations to be pinned down to the degree a decisive victory requires.

I feel that attrition would set in long before a victor became apparent... And as the wizarding world only wants to retain their independence in this scenario, this would be a de facto victory for Magical Britain.

Now, what if the wizards attacked? What if a Dark Lord sought to overthrow the muggle government and claim control of Muggle Britain? Could they? I'm sure it's possible, but it would be no less difficult than the muggles' offensive, and I feel the odds are against it.

But because that wasn't the scenario in play, I can conclude only one thing:

A war between Muggle Britain and Magical Britain would result in status quo ante bellum, and therefore, victory for Magical Britain.

[The Former]

True Rainbow Army původně napsal:

Don't comment guys let's it drop

I'm okay with that, comment or don't. Truth be told, these posts are essentially my final comment on the topic, rather than a discussion unto themselves. I got tired of trying to make my points in little posts when there were so many facets to my answer.

[flexplodin]

The muggles in the USA have a wand in one hand and a pistol in the other lol

[The Former]

flexplodin původně napsal:

The muggles in the USA have a wand in one hand and a pistol in the other lol

I'm legit not sure if that's a naughty joke or a joke about American culture!

[EXØRCiST]

Annoying OP!

[The Former]

EXØRCiST původně napsal:

Annoying OP!

🥂

[Izex]

I think a key point you missed is that most of the Wizards are not trained to fight and kill. Soldiers are and while on paper Wizards could cast a bunch of spells that counter the soldiers they have to be able to cast those spells precisely and extremely quickly against at least 10 to 1 odds. There is a reason why they hide themselves away from the greater population of the world.

[prusswan]

if a wizard gets wasted in some muggle establishment, probably same chances of getting mugged or killed

[The Former]

prusswan původně napsal:

if a wizard gets wasted in some muggle establishment, probably same chances of getting mugged or killed

Fair! A drunk wizard is nevertheless a drunk.

[GPandora]

this was fun, thanks for the efforts OP

[Parasaurolophus]

In conclusion, muggle Britain's tactics for a battle against wizards would be ineffective due to their weapons' limitations, the inscrutable nature of wizard methods, and the vast array of magical countermeasures available to wizards. Wizard weapons (wands) are largely unaffected by the limitations of muggle weapons, and there are numerous spells that can be used to counter muggle weaponry. The advantage would lie with the wizards in this scenario.

[Vigilante]

Something you completely seem to have missed is effective combat range at what range can you cast a spell in combat effectively vs the range of a gun snipers in combat I imagine would rack up incredible kil tallys due to wizards simply having no concept that someone that far away is a danger wizards are effectively having to charge to pistol range in every single combat while being shot at

[The Former]

Vigilante původně napsal:

Something you completely seem to have missed is effective combat range at what range can you cast a spell in combat effectively vs the range of a gun snipers in combat I imagine would rack up incredible kil tallys due to wizards simply having no concept that someone that far away is a danger wizards are effectively having to charge to pistol range in every single combat while being shot at

This is fair. Of course there are ways to prevent gunfire you know is coming - like a wall of Arresto Momentum or defensive charms. You don't necessarily need to outrange, you just need to protect yourself long enough to get into your range. Now the sniper thing is a different matter, but I think if wizards were dropping to snipers all over the place, they'd probably start using invisibility and other tactics to keep from being shot at in the first place.

[Vigilante]

Look what happened with magneto for example plastic guns I don’t think it would take to long for muggles to discover what wizards can’t ( or 95% can’t/wont) do and use that
-every squib looked down on would join the muggles instantly giving them an inn and telling them about wizard buildings and locations 1/2 of the building is hidden charms out there stop working for anyone told of the location.
With only one wizard school in England and one 100%wizard town if those locations are given to muggles that’s easy hostage taken for negotiation and end of war with muggles win it is to easy to have a squib give one of those away and they are right next to each other

[The Former]

Vigilante původně napsal:

Look what happened with magneto for example plastic guns I don’t think it would take to long for muggles to discover what wizards can’t ( or 95% can’t/wont) do and use that
-every squib looked down on would join the muggles instantly giving them an inn and telling them about wizard buildings and locations 1/2 of the building is hidden charms out there stop working for anyone told of the location.
With only one wizard school in England and one 100%wizard town if those locations are given to muggles that’s easy hostage taken for negotiation and end of war with muggles win it is to easy to have a squib give one of those away and they are right next to each other

But what happens when wizards start planting fakes? Trapped illusions? What happens when dragons come into play? What happens when wizards start turning to the dark arts? Too many variables to call it good just because muggles are clever. After all, wizards are also clever. They're of the same species, just different bloodlines.

[いか]

Just get a rough idea where they are and just drop thousands of tiny bombs and a few big ones full of nuclear love, it's gonna hit eventually.

Or just flying car drive a damn nuke right into hogwarts.

They didn't see a flying car, they won't see a drone loaded with a doomsday payload.

really hubris would be why they all lose, chocolate frog a sniper round from 4 km via anti tank round....oribal lasers you name it.

Don't get me wrong magic would do damage but there are simply more of us and we break their wands and they are screwed. Go on find a pheonix scrot sack heart worm string with a alder ash finish with the blood of a toad or something in the middle of wizard war 2.