How do you use guns?

[adaenis]

I kinda feel like an idiot asking this, but I can't seem to figure out how to use guns. Whenever I equip it, my character holds the weapon by the barrel, with the grip facing out away from me, and attacking with it just makes the character smack people with it. Even having ammo in my inventory seems to do nothing.

Am I missing something? Are firearms not completely implemented?

[dogged contender]

You don't.

[sean.campbell]

At the moment you can't use guns in the game. It was a design decision because originally killing people in the world yourself could really mess with the proc gen and cases but it also something that doesn't really fit with the goal of the game which is solving cases

[Crane]

That's something you should definitely tutorialise, then, because while it makes perfect sense from a design perspective, it's super unintuitive as a player, especially when you can pick up so many guns and gun-related items. It didn't occur to me, for example, that in a game where I can pick up not just guns, but silencers and multiple different kinds of shotgun ammo I wouldn't be able to USE any of them!

Even just a quick pop-up message when the player picks up a gun saying something would be good.

[adaenis]

Originally posted by sean.campbell:

At the moment you can't use guns in the game. It was a design decision because originally killing people in the world yourself could really mess with the proc gen and cases but it also something that doesn't really fit with the goal of the game which is solving cases

I respect the design decision, but since that's the case, the tutorial probably shouldn't send us to a gun shop, where we can buy weapons and ammunition for them. Or, it should at least warn the player that they can't use the weapon--and there should likely be some kind of in game reason for why an ex-cop wouldn't at least carry a firearm with them?

Honestly, it sorta feels railroady for an immersive sim to not give you the option to use guns if they're in the game to this extent.

[Adefice]

I kinda wish you *could* kill people and plant evidence on other people to suit your own ends. Part of the fun of the sandbox should be all the unethical choices you can make. More freedom is always good.

[Magitek Pixel]

I mean, it's a single player sandbox game. Let us have the gun lol

[adaenis]

Originally posted by Adefice:

I kinda wish you *could* kill people and plant evidence on other people to suit your own ends. Part of the fun of the sandbox should be all the unethical choices your can make. More freedom is always good.

Absolutely!

[EXEC_PAJA_/.]

I agree with adding the ability to use guns, there's another thread that offered suggestions to add in limitations as well, so the player has to be careful on how to use them. So far it's breaking immersion and messing with the Total Freedom part of the game. It's also immersion breaking for a detective to "not" have a gun when going after possibly armed criminals that could kill you at gun point.

If the idea is that it would be too easy and mess up with the main focus of the game, which is the investigation mechanic, make it so the investigation part takes more time and effort, make it difficult so the players absolutely "have" to investigate individuals to be absolutely certain that they're the criminals, because if the player happens to use a gun and shoot an innocent civilian, it's game over or a strike-one or whatever you guys could come up with.

This notion that a detective cannot carry a gun for self-defense because of difficulty is just laughable, i'm gonna be honest with you guys. Difficulty can be adjusted at any time by you devs, like for instance, you get shot 2 times and you're dead, you make 2 mistakes and it's over. It's a weak arguement to use, as for the immersion, you're a detective dude, you're going after serial killers, psychopaths with guns, possibly holding hostages or pursuing their next victim and you got nothing on you. Come on now.

There are ways to make it so the investigation can be an incredibly important, very difficult and time consuming and deadly if not done thoroughly, but not giving the player an option to have a gun to deal with criminals that "are" carrying guns is a stupid decision. So far, in an immersive sim, it's doing the opposite and actually breaking immersion. Still going to watch gameplay of the game and withhold judgement until i actually get to try the game out, but so far it's kind of a big letdown.

[Hardwater]

Originally posted by Doctor Bright:

I agree with adding the ability to use guns, there's another thread that offered suggestions to add in limitations as well, so the player has to be careful on how to use them. So far it's breaking immersion and messing with the Total Freedom part of the game. It's also immersion breaking for a detective to "not" have a gun when going after possibly armed criminals that could kill you at gun point.

If the idea is that it would be too easy and mess up with the main focus of the game, which is the investigation mechanic, make it so the investigation part takes more time and effort, make it difficult so the players absolutely "have" to investigate individuals to be absolutely certain that they're the criminals, because if the player happens to use a gun and shoot an innocent civilian, it's game over or a strike-one or whatever you guys could come up with.

This notion that a detective cannot carry a gun for self-defense because of difficulty is just laughable, i'm gonna be honest with you guys. Difficulty can be adjusted at any time by you devs, like for instance, you get shot 2 times and you're dead, you make 2 mistakes and it's over. It's a weak arguement to use, as for the immersion, you're a detective dude, you're going after serial killers, psychopaths with guns, possibly holding hostages or pursuing their next victim and you got nothing on you. Come on now.

There are ways to make it so the investigation can be an incredibly important, very difficult and time consuming and deadly if not done thoroughly, but not giving the player an option to have a gun to deal with criminals that "are" carrying guns is a stupid decision. So far, in an immersive sim, it's doing the opposite and actually breaking immersion. Still going to watch gameplay of the game and withhold judgement until i actually get to try the game out, but so far it's kind of a big letdown.

Completely agree with all of this, I was going to buy the game until I found out you cant use the guns, in my opinion immersive sims should allow you to use as many options as possible, restrictions completely negate the point of the genre, hopefully functionality can be added in the future, I'll check back now and then to see if its been implemented and pick it up if it is.

[Wrench In The Plan]

The help guide (more specifically, the section on combat) says something about how our detective has sworn off the use of guns a while ago. I think I’ll manage without, myself, but I am curious as to why they now refuse to use guns.

[adaenis]

Originally posted by Wrench In The Plan:

The help guide (more specifically, the section on combat) says something about how our detective has sworn off the use of guns a while ago. I think I’ll manage without, myself, but I am curious as to why they now refuse to use guns.

Well, that's good to know it's there, but I shouldn't have to dig into menus to figure out why the intuitive thing to do doesn't work. And admittedly, in an immersive sim, they shouldn't tell you "no you can't do that it'll break the game," as the goal should be to support as many options of gameplay as possible.

["George"]

Wow, no guns no game ?
The game is perfectly fine as is, not every 1st person sim needs to be Deus Ex.
The design reason is perfectly logical, and the player character not using guns makes sense in the context of the game.

[Zee]

You all know that the first half of the dev response was that it breaks the procedural generation too, right?

[adaenis]

This isn't about whether or not you should allow it. Generally, I think they should, since it'll open up more ways to approach situations, but I understand that's an opinion, and I'm fine with that not being the decision.

The biggest issue is mostly how the game communicates that you can't use a weapon--which is, by not communicating it at all, until you pull out the gun and find that you're holding it by the barrel, like you're about to beat someone with it. This part in particular, particularly because the game contains many things that would make you assume you could use firearms, like going to an arms dealer, with the option to buy guns, as part of the tutorial, as well as the game creating multiple types of firearms, attachments for them, and unique ammo types between them.

So, the real problem is that mechanically, the game does nothing to explain that it won't let you use a gun, and contains mostly indicators via items that not only is there gunplay, but also weapon customization, which isn't the case at all.

[Sal]

I agree that there should be guns, though they should obviously have severe repercussions. However, I think the biggest problem is that you cannot kill people at all. Not only is it just more immersive to be able to kill people, but not being able to kill people is super unimmersive, especially when I can stab someone 40 times and have them wake up a minute later. This to me completely destroys any attempt at creating an immersive city setting because it makes the city entirely static and immovable to the player, save for the proceduraly generated murders (which already feel more like random missions than actual events in the world).

Not to mention the fact that, in an immersive sim, the goal is to have many different ways in which you can approach a problem; But one of the most basic things you can do in a video game, kill an NPC, is just not allowed? And its not that your character doesnt have the tools or ability to do so, the fact is that you DO have all the tools you would need to kill an npc but are just not allowed to do so. This completely upends any immersion the game might have when you encounter it because you know you SHOULD be able to do it, but it doesnt work. And thats exactly what the game ends up feeling like; it doesnt work.

If you argue that it doesnt mesh with the setting or gameplay loop then you are just wrong. This is a setting in which industrialization has run rampant and human life means little, killing clearly makes sense so thats just a bad arguement. As for the gameplay loop, I was under the impression that this was an immersive sim. It is isnt it? If it is, there should be no singular gameplay loop, so to proclaim that killing would break the gameplay loop is essentially to claim that this game fails at being a good immersive sim. That might not be a great arguement but the fact is that anyone who enjoys the game as it is would not be forced into killing if it were added, they would just have to be more careful (or it could be an option that you can turn off).

The only genuine arguement for not being able to kill is that it breaks the game, but this simply is not a reasonable answer for such a massive problem. If you are unable to include something as essential as killing to a game that advertises an immersive simulation of a city, then the game is not finished and lacks an essential element of immersion and consequence. The fact that it currently breaks the game is not an excuse to do away with it entirely, it is big enough of an issue that it should not be given up on.

Again, not allowing the player to kill takes more away from the game than allowing it would; If I want to kill and its NOT in the game, then my immersion is broken entirely; if i dont want to kill and it IS in the game, then its just makes the game more immersive as I must be more careful in my actions. Even if I don't want to kill npcs, there should be consequences to me picking up the nearest hammer and using it to smash someone's head who just found me in their home.

An immersive sim that does not allow the player to do what would they should clearly be able to do given their tools and abilities fails entirely at what it sets out to accomplish, as this game unfortunately does.