Some questions about this game's design

[Toxi]

someone explain this to me... how did this series go, from games that never needed a Defensive special move for handling enemies that either blindspot you and give you no time to avoid their incoming attack, jab you, jab you a lot, or in extremely quick succession, for beatemups anyway, to a game that needs this?

I've been playing the older games after I got a bit bored with this one and I noticed that, I really don't need the defensive special all that much and even 3 which introduced the idea of the free special move, even that by its design did not intend the defensive special to be your get out of getting hit card.

On the same note, I've also been looking at how this game plays around with the replenishable health lost from specials, the series seems more designed to be faithful to the old, but the old never intended such a mechanic in the first place, which is why there's a lot of jabbing that disincentivizes the use of this mechanic for anyone bellow Hardest/Mania mastery.


I don't know.. I'm torn now with the game. I like the changes it did to combo-ing hits, it's a vast improvement over the old games, but when considering the full picture and coming back every now and then from older SoR games, to me it feels like whiplash, in both how much more relaxed I can be in those games half the time, as well as how much more challenging they can still pack in later levels.

edit: oh wow.. I even forgot the combo score existed... There's also That piece of caveat to put together with those things I mentioned. It's sound in practice, but it's a miss for me again, only seems to work as intended for anyone who has a good mastery of the game, because of its All Or Nothing design.

[Leynx & Fenrir]

SOR4 was designed for and addressed to hardcore players. One of the mistakes from the developers is to give a deformed memories nourished by nostalgia and supported by a kind of elitist crowd still playing SOR games at very high difficulties. They somehow thought that SOR were super technical games to be enjoyed only in mania... instead of seeing them as what they were, BTU cathartic and offering more and more options and though because it was the way arcade games were designed...

Those new mechanics give more aggressive options to players for combo and score. But with more aggressive options then the old kind of AI mechanics wouldn't work. Hence adding a lot of space control, armor (not that much different from invincible frames of old SOR), sucker punches and other novelties but not always goodies.

The lack of precision of the hit box doesn't help either.

SOR4 has quite a strange genesis and sincerely it is more of SOR2.5 than a SOR4.

It is a good SOR (let's be sincere here, the old ones or SORR have their flaws and weaknesses as well...for players not blinded by nostalgia and / or who are in bad faith) but the game is a bit of a miss for the latest entry of a series after a hiatus of more than 25 years.

It lacks contents and coherence (When you can see what Dragon's Crown offered 7 years ago)
And whatever the game looks, sounds and moves amazing...I find playing alone just tedious.

Let's see if they offer a DLC with new characters, stages, modes and enemies.

[Black Lamb, Rock Enjoyer]

All I got from this was that you dont understand this game, and are able to play the older games easier. Because you dont "need" to defensive special to handle enemies surrounding you at all. In fact, thats a death trap.

That and you suck at Monster Hunter.

[Toxi]

Originally posted by Black Lamb:

All I got from this was that you dont understand this game, and are able to play the older games easier. Because you dont "need" to defensive special to handle enemies surrounding you at all. In fact, thats a death trap.

That and you suck at Monster Hunter.

o..k?... thanks for the off topic compliment there. also, I know. That's what I said.


anyway, mostly agreed with you Lenyx..
I have some points I'd argue, but I think I talked about them in length in other threads and I'd rather not be a broken record about what I had to say before.

On the subject of SORR, it's definitely amazing but also flawed in some very subtle ways, that could be invisible.
The star system for Blitz is kinda scuffed, I know that Max is a lot better on 0-1 stars than he is on 2 and 3 stars, the enemy boss grabs can be way too much at times, some time and space shenanigans happen with the way the remake engine tries to overcompensate grabs much like the older games, Jet is still Jet, etc.

[Xoanon.EXE]

Originally posted by Leynx KF-FR:

SOR4 was designed for and addressed to hardcore players. One of the mistakes from the developers is to give a deformed memories nourished by nostalgia and supported by a kind of elitist crowd still playing SOR games at very high difficulties. They somehow thought that SOR were super technical games to be enjoyed only in mania... instead of seeing them as what they were, BTU cathartic and offering more and more options and though because it was the way arcade games were designed...

Those new mechanics give more aggressive options to players for combo and score. But with more aggressive options then the old kind of AI mechanics wouldn't work. Hence adding a lot of space control, armor (not that much different from invincible frames of old SOR), sucker punches and other novelties but not always goodies.

The lack of precision of the hit box doesn't help either..

F hardcore players, not everybody has the time to sit down and memorize every frame of every attack of every enemy and every enemy placement in every level, sometimes ya just wanna beat up some baddies to relax

[El Fuerte]

git gud?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2tbIewWRw4

You're not really forced to use defensive special in this game as much as you claim. If you are over-using it and getting killed then thats totally on you.

[shamamoes]

Originally posted by Xoanon FalloutWhoVegas:

Originally posted by Leynx KF-FR:

SOR4 was designed for and addressed to hardcore players. One of the mistakes from the developers is to give a deformed memories nourished by nostalgia and supported by a kind of elitist crowd still playing SOR games at very high difficulties. They somehow thought that SOR were super technical games to be enjoyed only in mania... instead of seeing them as what they were, BTU cathartic and offering more and more options and though because it was the way arcade games were designed...

Those new mechanics give more aggressive options to players for combo and score. But with more aggressive options then the old kind of AI mechanics wouldn't work. Hence adding a lot of space control, armor (not that much different from invincible frames of old SOR), sucker punches and other novelties but not always goodies.

The lack of precision of the hit box doesn't help either..

F hardcore players, not everybody has the time to sit down and memorize every frame of every attack of every enemy and every enemy placement in every level, sometimes ya just wanna beat up some baddies to relax

then select Easy difficulties. I don't understand whats the problem. I don't understand what you're doing on hard difficulties if you're not the kind of player who can handle it.

I've said this before in this forum and i stand by it: Casual players will ruin independent video games. They are forcing indie developers at social media with nerf demands, and the developers seem obligated to comply because as a small company, they become afraid of sales numbers.

Seen it happen too many times this year (Streets of Rage 4, Wallachia: Reign of Dracula, Amnesia: Rebirth).

[Toxi]

Originally posted by Shabaoe:

then select Easy difficulties. I don't understand what you're doing on hard difficulties if you're not the kind of player who can handle it.

before you go into diatribes, I thought about this and that's kinda the issue here..

I don't know why steam users love so much to talk Over the points someone makes in their own thread, but let me repeat this one more time... I am comparing this game over a harder endgame in SORR and I'm saying, that game has a better grasp of balance and consistent challenge, even if borrowed from SOR 1-3, but it's much better designed than this one.

The thing SOR 4 has that is better is the hit combo gameplay and some good ideas on re inventing some enemies' design.. I can't imagine what the old games' Ravens would've been like in this one if they'd stayed the same.

The old games Didn't Intend for Combo score systems that get completely killed by ONE Jab, which replaced both the score pickups and the 1up pickups of the older games which is what the Older games had it in there for and those worked on both a level of bragging rights, when you start from as few lives as possible on the hardest difficulty as well as don't pick any 1ups, or for anyone trying to have a good time, while still maintaining a consistency in the challenge that ramped up.

With SOR 4, the challenge ramps up as soon as level 1 in terms of enemies and 4 is where it spikes, with the jumping ladies, which is why I usually say that the most challenge in SOR 4 is in the Level's basic enemies, Not in the bosses. Only a few bosses pose any real threat to the player.

This is why I'm not even saying the game's too easy or too hard, it's more stuck in a weird place, but I'm more confused about why this design and I think Lenyx got it about right.. This game tried to be a sequel specifically to SOR 2, but it also wanted to add all these Neat new things, while also disregarding the good things SOR 3 did and while also keeping the enemy design closer to SOR 3.
It's a series of weird decisions and not necessarily, picking the best of every game, because people have asked constantly where the f the roll and dash are if you have enemies not just as tricky as SOR 3, but even trickier than they were. SORR kept that and I don't see anyone complain about that.

and even if the game had the run and dash on all characters, the pickups and 1ups being swapped for the Combo scoring will still be there and make life harder for anyone bellow Hardest difficulty, at least on the Arcade mode, the one without the 3 continues unlike the older games.

[Mary]

Originally posted by 𝐑𝐞𝐝♛𝟒𝟓𝟕:

git gud?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2tbIewWRw4

You're not really forced to use defensive special in this game as much as you claim. If you are over-using it and getting killed then thats totally on you.

I agree with this guy. I use like, no specials whatsoever when I play. I avoid getting hit by moving up and down a lot, and by relying on the iframes or whatever that come with throws. It works quite well, to me!

[4R35]

Originally posted by toxicitzi:

someone explain this to me... how did this series go, from games that never needed a Defensive special move for handling enemies that either blindspot you and give you no time to avoid their incoming attack, jab you, jab you a lot, or in extremely quick succession, for beatemups anyway, to a game that needs this?

Well that's kind of the secret to SOR's success. Your character always had the tools to deal with the situation.

In SOR4 you have the potential for high offence but this doesn't offset the cheap AI which is no doubt what the devs thought. Cheap AI is cheap AI, it's frustrating. You win against cheap AI rarely by genuinely outplaying it.

You win in SOR1-3 by outplaying the AI which means even if you are close to death, if you play your best then you'll likely succeed. In SOR4 you can do your best but know that death is one unavoidable flying kick away. Huge satisfaction is gained from genuinely outplaying the game (SOR1-3), SOR4 doesn't have this secret sauce. In other words the devs have NO idea what makes a good SOR game

[Mary]

Originally posted by 4R35:

You win in SOR1-3 by outplaying the AI which means even if you are close to death, if you play your best then you'll likely succeed. In SOR4 you can do your best but know that death is one unavoidable flying kick away.

Move up or down. :|
You legit don't have to do anything else, just move up or down to avoid attacks. Use throws, you can't be hit while you're using them, etc. If you're decent enough with it, you won't die all too often; it's not inevitable at all. Instead of defending, this series as a whole has always relied on the mechanic of simply moving along the Y axis to avoid attacks.

[Leynx & Fenrir]

Originally posted by Shabaoe:

Originally posted by Xoanon FalloutWhoVegas:

I've said this before in this forum and i stand by it: Casual players will ruin independent video games. They are forcing indie developers at social media with nerf demands, and the developers seem obligated to comply because as a small company, they become afraid of sales numbers.

Seen it happen too many times this year (Streets of Rage 4, Wallachia: Reign of Dracula, Amnesia: Rebirth).

That is nonsense. The sheer numbers of players of all ages allowed for a very difficult game like Dark Soul to become a successful series. Even in the indie scene, the success of Hollow Knight, Binding of Isaac and many other prove that yeah, difficult games sell well. Then, I do not think that SOR4 being difficult in mania is the concern raised in that thread. Nobody complains in this thread that in Mania, the game should be very difficult (fair or unfair, that is for players to see) and offers the appropriate challenge.

The problem is SOR4 shouldn't have been designed with that elitist vision at first.The game feels incoherent, cheap and tedious in lower difficulties but is yet not thrilling because of the lack of enemies and a terrible level design. To the point that playing alone feels like a chore passed the first 2 stages.

And now when the developers make change to the game in higher difficulties, they do not appeal to the casual crowd more since there is no new content and the mechanics remains the same and flawed but worse, they upset their target of core elite players who wanted maybe just more content or mechanics to enjoy those challenges offered by higher difficulties.

Me as casual (older) player, I am fine with mania being tough (and I am sure it is somehow fairer than old SOR). I am more concerned with SOR4 being just SOR2.5, not being generous in content or offering more coherent and dynamic mechanics.

Anyway, as long more people enjoy SOR4

[4R35]

Originally posted by Honey Mary:

Originally posted by 4R35:

You win in SOR1-3 by outplaying the AI which means even if you are close to death, if you play your best then you'll likely succeed. In SOR4 you can do your best but know that death is one unavoidable flying kick away.

Move up or down. :|
You legit don't have to do anything else, just move up or down to avoid attacks. Use throws, you can't be hit while you're using them, etc. If you're decent enough with it, you won't die all too often; it's not inevitable at all. Instead of defending, this series as a whole has always relied on the mechanic of simply moving along the Y axis to avoid attacks.

"Move up or down". Just press defensive special! Just press the button! Just play the game! Thanks but that's not advice.

If you didn't understand my comment here it is again. The problem is with cheap enemy attacks and abilities. There are situations where it's almost impossible to avoid or defend against i.e swarming enemies that do constant charging headbutts, flying knees, tracking jump kicks, have super armour etc. Let me repeat it again, enemies attacks were not an issue in the original games EVEN on Mania difficulty because you had the defensive tools and the AI wasn't cheap.

Cheap AI makes the game a chore to play as you're not outplaying the game. Winning often amounts to how lucky you are. Again, in SOR 1-3 this was never the case.

Understand?

I haven't played the game since the big balance patch but my understanding is defensive specials should now work as they did in the old games - They break enemy attacks. So the devs did recognise there were issues around the players ability to deal with enemy attacks. Bravo to them.

[Mary]

Originally posted by 4R35:

Originally posted by Honey Mary:

Move up or down. :|
You legit don't have to do anything else, just move up or down to avoid attacks. Use throws, you can't be hit while you're using them, etc. If you're decent enough with it, you won't die all too often; it's not inevitable at all. Instead of defending, this series as a whole has always relied on the mechanic of simply moving along the Y axis to avoid attacks.

"Move up or down". Just press defensive special! Just press the button! Just play the game! Thanks but that's not advice.

If you didn't understand my comment here it is again. The problem is with cheap enemy attacks and abilities. There are situations where it's almost impossible to avoid or defend against i.e swarming enemies that do constant charging headbutts, flying knees, tracking jump kicks, have super armour etc. Let me repeat it again, enemies attacks were not an issue in the original games EVEN on Mania difficulty because you had the defensive tools and the AI wasn't cheap.

Cheap AI makes the game a chore to play as you're not outplaying the game. Winning often amounts to how lucky you are. Again, in SOR 1-3 this was never the case.

Understand?

I haven't played the game since the big balance patch but my understanding is defensive specials should now work as they did in the old games - They break enemy attacks. So the devs did recognise there were issues around the players ability to deal with enemy attacks. Bravo to them.

It's better advice than instantly decrying the game as broken or poorly designed because you don't understand the gameplay mechanics that have literally always been there since the very beginning.

Just crying about cheap AI doesn't mean that it's actually cheap AI when the game provides you tools to avoid the situation.

Do you understand?

Luck doesn't factor in to the advice you're given, and you're given advice because what you're declaring is, for lack of a better term, stupid.

But whatever, be a scrub. "git gud" and all that, because clearly that's the kind of situation that this is.







EDITed to match your condescending tone. Sorry it's not our fault that you conflate `not being able to play the game` with `questionable game design`. Your problem with cheap AI has literally always been there, and has literally always been avoidable by the same means that you willfully ignore because you aren't actually saying anything. You're just being a douche for no reason.

EDIT2: "Wahhhh, super armor." The tools to deal with this are still there. Read your opponent. Play the game. Don't be a lame that's allergic to advice.

[4R35]

Originally posted by Honey Mary:

Originally posted by 4R35:

"Move up or down". Just press defensive special! Just press the button! Just play the game! Thanks but that's not advice.

If you didn't understand my comment here it is again. The problem is with cheap enemy attacks and abilities. There are situations where it's almost impossible to avoid or defend against i.e swarming enemies that do constant charging headbutts, flying knees, tracking jump kicks, have super armour etc. Let me repeat it again, enemies attacks were not an issue in the original games EVEN on Mania difficulty because you had the defensive tools and the AI wasn't cheap.

Cheap AI makes the game a chore to play as you're not outplaying the game. Winning often amounts to how lucky you are. Again, in SOR 1-3 this was never the case.

Understand?

I haven't played the game since the big balance patch but my understanding is defensive specials should now work as they did in the old games - They break enemy attacks. So the devs did recognise there were issues around the players ability to deal with enemy attacks. Bravo to them.

It's better advice than instantly decrying the game as broken or poorly designed because you don't understand the gameplay mechanics that have literally always been there since the very beginning.

Just crying about cheap AI doesn't mean that it's actually cheap AI when the game provides you tools to avoid the situation.

Do you understand?

Luck doesn't factor in to the advice you're given, and you're given advice because what you're declaring is, for lack of a better term, stupid.

But whatever, be a scrub. "git gud" and all that, because clearly that's the kind of situation that this is.







EDITed to match your condescending tone. Sorry it's not our fault that you conflate `not being able to play the game` with `questionable game design`. Your problem with cheap AI has literally always been there, and has literally always been avoidable by the same means that you willfully ignore because you aren't actually saying anything. You're just being a douche for no reason.

EDIT2: "Wahhhh, super armor." The tools to deal with this are still there. Read your opponent. Play the game. Don't be a lame that's allergic to advice.

I did not "instantly decry the game". I've played 17 hours of it. There's not much to understand, it's a beat em up. Same as SOR 1 and 2 and 3. Move up and down the plane to avoid attacks, thanks I learned this after the first enemy in SOR 1. I've explained my rationale unfortunately this is the part you dont understand.

There is a reason why SOR4 exists today and it's because of the legendary gameplay of the original games, people loved this. Have you played those games? It might help you in terms of perspective.

It seems like you're on a different wavelength so I won't bother explaining it again. But dont take it from me, the devs have actually gone and made changes to the moves and AI specifically to address the issues I've mentioned. No point arguing this now as you missed the all the arguments here in the steam forums in the first few weeks the game was released.

[Mary]

Originally posted by 4R35:

I did not "instantly decry the game". I've played 17 hours of it. There's not much to understand, it's a beat em up. Same as SOR 1 and 2 and 3. Move up and down the plane to avoid attacks, thanks I learned this after the first enemy in SOR 1. I've explained my rationale unfortunately this is the part you dont understand.

Alright, since you, like me and basically everyone else here, have played the older games, how is it that you don't understand that the methods to avoid attacks are there? Between moving along the Y axis, which has always been a mechanic since beat em ups have even been a genre, or just a well-timed special attack or grab, why is it that you complain of `cheap AI` when the options to avoid their attacks are clearly are there? Just get better at utilizing the options.

There's not much to understand, it's a beat em up. The fact that you see your options and still choose to complain about, of all things, cheap AI is just stupid. It relegates this conversation's answer to just simply being, `git gud scrub`.

Originally posted by 4R35:

There is a reason why SOR4 exists today and it's because of the legendary gameplay of the original games, people loved this. Have you played those games? It might help you in terms of perspective.

Of course I have, and for you to automatically assume I haven't when I'm giving you the most basic of advice that is more or less a staple of the series is what makes your garbage posts egregious. "omg the cheap ai" has more or less been kind of similar in every iteration of SoR; or atleast the solutions to deal with them. This game may have moments where enemies are unflinching or whathave you, but that doesn't necessarily class the AI as `cheap` so much as, `I just don't know how to deal with them effortlessly because I'm not the most proficient person out there`.

As well, if the developers have made efforts to address the issues you've had; what is the problem? Shouldn't the AI suddenly be less `cheap` or do you still struggle to understand how the game works? Why does this thread exist if so?

Do some actual thinking instead of pretending to know something that you clearly don't.

Originally posted by 4R35:

In SOR4 you have the potential for high offence but this doesn't offset the cheap AI which is no doubt what the devs thought. Cheap AI is cheap AI, it's frustrating. You win against cheap AI rarely by genuinely outplaying it.

You win in SOR1-3 by outplaying the AI which means even if you are close to death, if you play your best then you'll likely succeed. In SOR4 you can do your best but know that death is one unavoidable flying kick away.

This, right here, gives away that you have no idea how the hell to play this game. 4 isn't that much different from 1-3. Maybe you should play them again, because if you're able to `outplay` the AI in 1-3, you're definitely able to outplay them in 4 using more or less the same general methods.