The map fundamentally undermines my experience

[Malidictus]

Preface: I actually like this game. It has its issues, it has its bugs, but it's a decent twinstick and it looks gorgeous. Love the Arcology design. However, getting around the world has been an absolute nightmare in a way that I simply can't excuse. A friend of mine who also plays assured me that the developers seem to genuinely care and appreciate feedback, so here are a few ways in which the map/navigation system fails and how I feel they can be improved.



The look of the map

The Ascent's map lives in that no-man's-land between being a symbolic representation of traversable space and a direct screenshot of the in-game graphics. As a result, it has the downsides of both and the benefits of neither. Currently, the map uses simple geometric shapes to represent the appearance of terrain, both traversable and cosmetic. This makes it difficult to tell which parts of the map I can walk on and which parts will block me. At the same time, the simplified representation makes it difficult to tell at a glance what it's actually representing, meaning that I can't really connect what the map's showing me to what I actually see when I get there.

All of the above means that the map actually carries very limited information. I never know where I can go, so I end up just going all of the way, running into all of the dead ends and circling around, almost like I would without a map. Because I can never tell where I am, I end up constantly pausing to open the map and spending time comparing the general shapes of spaces to what I see just to try and create an in-between "mental map" to connect the actual map with the in-game space. This is quite literally the worst of both worlds.

Suggestions:

There's no simple solution here, as both of my proposals require a ground-up redesign of the map representation. My personal preference would be to drop the 3D shapes entirely and go with simple 2D shapes representing the space the player can actually walk. When spaces overlap with a vertical gap, draw them on top of each other and colour-code the ground to show height. Optionally, give the player finer control over "level" which applies to the local area, rather than to major levels of the Arcology.

If this isn't possible, then grab an isometric screenshot of the game world and use that as a map. Maybe grab multiple screenshots at multiple levels with the walls removed (exactly the way the hide when the player enters buildings or goes under overpasses) and use that as a map. While this will be less useful than the above-mentioned 2D shapes, it should be a lot easier to do since you should be able to pull this directly from the engine rather than having to create new art assets. Additionally, this would let the player more easily connect their location on the map with their location in the world. When spaces look like what's shown on the map, navigation is made easier.



The radar:

Currently, the radar has such limited use as to be almost pointless. Yes, it depicts enemies slightly outside of visual range, but that can be fixed by zooming the camera out a bit. At best, the radar can show map markers. However, map markers are of somewhat limited use (more on that in a bit), while the radar could do so much more.

Crucially, the radar does not show terrain. I've been able to somewhat "kludge" its use as a terrain indicator by looking at civilian icons. They tend to be arranged along the sides of traversable terrain so they SOMEWHAT show area borders and can be used for this. It's very unreliable, however, and only works in areas with large civilian density.

Suggestion:

Show the map in the radar screen. Simple as that. Instead of showing dots on a black background, show dots on the map background. Doubly so if you go with some more useful representation of the map. That way, the player doesn't have to constantly pause the game to look at the big fold-out tourist map, but can quickly glance at the minimap in the corner of their screen. You can still draw enemies and other map markers on the radar while still making it useful.



The map markers:

Map markers are one of the most confusing things in this game. It took me hours to piece together that the markers themselves don't mark locations on the map. Instead, they're elevated above the map, with their actual location depicted by vertical arrows pointing down to the map. I can't for the life of me piece together why this was done, as it only serves to create confusion. It causes my eyes to constantly have to jump up-and-down between icon and location. In areas with multiple icons in a small area, that has the feel of trying to visually track data along the rows of a very wide spreadsheet. It's inconvenient and cumbersome.

Additionally, map markers have no indication of height - not that I can determine, anyway. Many, many times I've spent 15 minutes running around an area looking for a chest only to discover it was on a platform above me I didn't know existed, or somewhere below in a building. Yes, markers point to a specific point in space. However, due to the map's strange geometric shape representation, I have absolutely no sense of height so I don't know what level that points to.

Suggestions:

Draw map markers directly on the map and scrap the vertical lines altogether. They don't help. Display a height indicator next to each marker. This could take several forms. You could display a circle around the marker which changes colour relative to the player's location - blueish for down, reddish for up, or whatever you pick. Alternately, you can use an icon in the corner of the marker indicating its relative height to the player. Down-arrow for "below," up-arrow for "above," no icon or an X for "relatively same level."



The zone transitions:

Currently, the game is split into zones. However, where these zones are and where the transition between them happens is not communicated to the player. I could be happily shooting level 6 enemies, round a corner and run into level 26 enemies without realising it. Inversely, I could be trying to travel to a specific zone and simply not being able to find the entrance. I'd go to three different spots where the map looks like it connects, only to run into dead ends until I find the one gate I can use.

Similarly, I'll often spend an inordinate amount of time running around trying to find ways up or down, or around blocked-off passages because none of these things are marked. It feels almost like a gamble. Which of these ways can I use, and which will pile another 5 minutes of backtracking through empty terrain? Which zone am I in, and when did I get here?

Suggestions:

Put markers on the map for all of the above. All doors should be marked on the map, colour-coded for whether I can open them or not. All blocked-off passages should be marked on the map, as well. All elevators should be marked on the map, too - with a vertical line depicting their travel. Building interiors should be marked AS building interiors, distinct from the open-air streets outside.

And before you guys tell me it's impossible or too cluttered or what have you - that's precisely what the Silent Hill map did. Harry drew in marker over every blocked street and every locked door as you encountered it, creating a sense of the play area as you explored. We need the same thing here.

We also need a marker for zone transition gates and a better border around individual zones. We need an indicator for each zone's intended level range, while we're at it. If a zone's level range varies, then we need markers for that as well. Maybe as a colour-coded optional overlay for the map.



In conclusion:

I realise that The Ascent isn't a AAA game made on a budget of hundreds of million by staff the size of a small town. What's here is already impressive. However, the issues I'm pointing out shouldn't be issues of team size or budget. They come down to game design and should be able to be addressed with only a reasonable cost of development time.

In general, I feel that his game is held back not so much by scope as by awkward design, and could be improved dramatically with fairly minor changes.

[StrangerComeKnocking]

I agree, the mini map would be much improved with terrain marking. I also wish they had an overlaid 2d map like Path of Exile or Diablo 3.

[SnugSnug]

A map similar to Necromunda, (also Unreal) would work well.

[Specific Beef]

I had all the same frustrations, but I've changed my mind as time has gone on.

I haven't changed so far as to think it's a good map, but it's the right map. A good map would show you clearly exactly where to go: essentially a smaller version of the game world. But I think finding the orange crates would actually be more of a chore if all I was doing was walking from A to B.

I really enjoyed finding every crate because I had to learn the rules of this world. I became good at finding the elevators and stairways, and learned that there are vehicle parking spots that can be operated if they're green. I became better at figuring out where an item might be on a different level, or found via a route inside a building.

I don't find anything difficult about it anymore, but having to guess at the route became really rewarding for me because it wasn't an easy or instant thing. I like it being a problem that needs to be solved, and the map gives me just enough information not to ruin that.

[Moffin Bovin]

i think the simplest solution would be to mark stairs and elevators on the map. and maybe even just have the different floors in different colours.

[RawTheory]

Originally posted by Specific Beef:

I had all the same frustrations, but I've changed my mind as time has gone on.

I haven't changed so far as to think it's a good map, but it's the right map. A good map would show you clearly exactly where to go: essentially a smaller version of the game world. But I think finding the orange crates would actually be more of a chore if all I was doing was walking from A to B.

I really enjoyed finding every crate because I had to learn the rules of this world. I became good at finding the elevators and stairways, and learned that there are vehicle parking spots that can be operated if they're green. I became better at figuring out where an item might be on a different level, or found via a route inside a building.

I don't find anything difficult about it anymore, but having to guess at the route became really rewarding for me because it wasn't an easy or instant thing. I like it being a problem that needs to be solved, and the map gives me just enough information not to ruin that.

What this man said can be applied to nearly every aspect of this games design. And I love it for that.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

+100.

The only reason it's playable is because of the pathfinder button. Still hard to find shops and stuff, but at least I can press the pathfinder button and follow the trail to my mission objective.

Navigation is maybe the worst aspect in this game.

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by RawTheory:

What this man said can be applied to nearly every aspect of this games design. And I love it for that.

The problem with that line of thinking is you're excusing bad design. You pointed this out yourself - this can apply to nearly every aspect of the game. Does your game crash if you attempt certain quests? Well, the challenge then becomes figuring out which quests crash you and not do those. And if you think I'm exaggerating, this game has a similar issue already. Many quests are impossible to complete when you get them, because they send you to areas you're either too low level for or that you literally can't access until later in the game. You could argue that this is part of the challenge, but I'd argue that the game shouldn't be doing that anyway.

Players dealing with bugs, poor design, bad UI and lack of documentation should not be considered part of the game's challenge, because it normalises careless design in the minds of developers. I'm almost positive that using the map isn't meant to be a challenge. If it were, we wouldn't have been given an objective trail to follow. If anything, the objective trail is a tacit admission that the game's world is difficult to navigate, thus a stopgap is put in place in order to paper over the faults.

Don't excuse bad game design simply because you were able to find ways around it.

Originally posted by Specific Beef:

I don't find anything difficult about it anymore, but having to guess at the route became really rewarding for me because it wasn't an easy or instant thing. I like it being a problem that needs to be solved, and the map gives me just enough information not to ruin that.

I feel compelled to point out - nothing I've listed in the OP is a problem because it's "difficult." This bears repeating, but things can be easy AND bad at the same time. There's nothing fundamentally "difficult" about using the map, any more than reading a badly-formatted spreadsheet (or forum post) is "difficult." What it is, is cumbersome, slow and unpleasant. By your own direct admission, you stopped using the map and relied on environment cues instead. I read that as a tacit admission that the map fails at its job, because you should have been using it for that if it were actually functional.

Now personally, I'm ideologically opposed to game design which forces players to rely solely or even primarily on environmental cues, but that's a separate subject. Assuming the game was "intended" to be navigated via the overworld predominantly, why even have a map in the first place? If that's part of the challenge, just ship the game without a map. Carrion did (and was all the worse for it), after all.

I'm of the opinion that if a feature exists in a video game, it should be usable. If it's going to be bad, then just cut it and do without. I kept this post focused entirely on the map, but I can level most of the same criticisms towards the game's inventory system, as well. It took me about a half hour's worth of searching to figure out what "Lower Body" is, only to discover it's just another name for the "Frame" attribute. That's just a random example.

Solving problems is a fine thing to do in video games. I would, however, rather solve intentionally-designed challenges than look for ways to circumvent janky design. The latter is rewarding in its own way, but it creates the sense of a low-rent, buggy, unfinished game that I more put up with than enjoy.

[Moffin Bovin]

Originally posted by Malidictus:

I could be happily shooting level 6 enemies, round a corner and run into level 26 enemies without realising it.

this specific problem has less to do with the map and more to do with the fact that an enemy's level isn't displayed until you engage them. You need to get to the point where they are shooting at you to even tell that they are too high in level for you and if they kill you in one shot then you are out of luck.

Plus, enemy encounters shouldn't be placed in a way where you can just stumble into level 26 enemies at the start of the game. there should be a barrier preventing you from going that way. like a locked door, or some rubble, or an extending bridge that you can't operate yet. Or the enemies and items should just not spawn in until later when you are an appropriate level.

i'm honestly sick of this "red skull bs" in games where enemy mobs go from being a cakewalk to suddenly way above your level hp sponges that kill you in one hit. It's just a source of frustration and a way of forcing you to backtrack. It doesn't make a game more fun. It's immersion breaking since there is usually nothing special about the enemies, its just inflated stats. It seems like every rpg does it and i hate it.

the radar does tell you what zone you are in, so you know you have changed zones from that. but, enemies can be drastically different levels within the same zone.

[Specific Beef]

Originally posted by Malidictus:

By your own direct admission, you stopped using the map and relied on environment cues instead. I read that as a tacit admission that the map fails at its job, because you should have been using it for that if it were actually functional.

I'm not relying on the environment "instead". I'm doing what I was meant to do.

There are a lot of games with maps that are for highly vertical environments, and yet the map is strictly top-down and 2D with spot indicators offering only "it's above you" or "it's below you" height information, as you mention in your post. However, that decision is also a deliberate method of obscuring direct communication about exactly where to go, which creates an opportunity for the designers to turn placement of collectables into puzzles of a sort (Watch Dogs: Legion being a recent example). This puzzle aspect extends to navigation as well as objects.

I only need to talk about the deepStink to prove this is intentional and not "bad design". The paths of the entire deepStink are essentially formed around hiding one item, the Rat Bite augmentation, while allowing other missions to entwine around it. There's a little bit of blunt force with the locked portals keeping you out of zones until later, but once you do have full access it's not simply a matter of walking in there and getting that collectable. It has to be found by deduction.

There's a walkway in the deepStink that the camera shows you early on, ensuring that a dead body and a collectable are placed temptingly close to the camera, but you can't see how to reach that platform by moving to the left or right: the way up is harder to find.

The placement of every single thing has been thought about. Sometimes objects are placed to catch your eye from high areas to encourage you to look for a way down to get them. Granted, that can suck for you if you're not interested in Eureka moments or even in finding collectables and you just want the stuff ASAP or just go from A to B without a hitch, but if there's an Ascent 2 then I hope they go further with this.

Assuming the game was "intended" to be navigated via the overworld predominantly, why even have a map in the first place? If that's part of the challenge, just ship the game without a map. Carrion did (and was all the worse for it), after all.

Because the map is a hint, not a full answer. All games could show you precisely where to go, but only a proportion do that. Most obscure the full information to whatever extent. In the real world, a good map will get me precisely where I want to go even if I've never seen the place before, but few game designers seem to think that a good real world map makes a good game world map. A good game map is going to help you navigate but it might not be the navigation, and finding the way through might require seeing the place and going through a process of elimination of the possibilities. There just aren't many ways to create that "How do I...?" question and the "Aha!" answer in an isometric game.

Since game layout is essentially three things—areas of gameplay, dead zones, and connection points between areas—the designers had to think about how many ways into each area there are, and why. "It's bad design" is too simplistic. They started from a blank page. It would have been easy to extend the length of certain pathways by a few more feet so that districts were clearly delineated by dead space, but they made them butt up against each other for a reason.

The thing with The Ascent is that even though it's a big world, it's not as big as the map makes it look. It doesn't really take all that long to figure out what's truly impassible or where there's a way through. It's not like, say, Control where realising too late that you've taken the wrong route could turn into a real labour.

[spyteo]

the game is fantastic but definitely needed free camera control and more details mini map and save whenever we want

[Moffin Bovin]

Originally posted by Specific Beef:

The thing with The Ascent is that even though it's a big world, it's not as big as the map makes it look. It doesn't really take all that long to figure out what's truly impassible or where there's a way through.

i have a quest marker in the cosmodrome but there is no quest giver and i genuinely can't tell if its bugged or if its indicating that there is a floor below that i can't cant find the access to.

[Zoid13]

i for the most part like the vagueness of the map as it encourages exploration to work out how to get somewhere often times resulting in finding some cool scenery or hidden away area you might not have.

i don't like the ping thing that draws a trail of where to follow im glad the shortcut is 'o' and on the other side of the keyboard out of reach where ive never actually used it. (should also be removed imo but i get that some people like it so i can live with just never using it myself)

don't like hand holding specially in such a rich detailed world encouraging exploration and finding your own way around is fantastic.

i would actually like them to also remove the loot chest locations from the map so its more of a discovery of exploration as opposed to an icon i need to go collect and can mostly tunnel vision my way to it on the map.

the only thing i wish the map would allow is the fast travel between the upper and lower plate.

i don't think the map should be some all knowing crystal clear detailed layout of everything letting you instantly path directly to where you want with no issues. imo that would detract greatly from the game and discovering its incredible scenery.

[SlicedAndDiced]

Originally posted by Moffin Bovin:

Originally posted by Specific Beef:

The thing with The Ascent is that even though it's a big world, it's not as big as the map makes it look. It doesn't really take all that long to figure out what's truly impassible or where there's a way through.

i have a quest marker in the cosmodrome but there is no quest giver and i genuinely can't tell if its bugged or if its indicating that there is a floor below that i can't cant find the access to.

yup i have that too, i cant find the guy. there is a mark but no one there

[Zoid13]

Originally posted by SlicedAndDiced:

Originally posted by Moffin Bovin:

i have a quest marker in the cosmodrome but there is no quest giver and i genuinely can't tell if its bugged or if its indicating that there is a floor below that i can't cant find the access to.

yup i have that too, i cant find the guy. there is a mark but no one there

thats the delivery location from the 5th delivery mission from the guy in the casino. you need to keep going back to the casino guy to get more delivery side missions.
the bug is that you can see the icon before you have the quest.

[Moffin Bovin]

Originally posted by Beni:

Originally posted by SlicedAndDiced:

yup i have that too, i cant find the guy. there is a mark but no one there

thats the delivery location from the 5th delivery mission from the guy in the casino. you need to keep going back to the casino guy to get more delivery side missions.
the bug is that you can see the icon before you have the quest.

its still highlights the issue with the map and with indicators on it. because on the map it does look like there might be another level there and its not actually clear if you can access this second area (that doesn't exist)or where you would even access it from.

i think that showing elevators and stairs on the map would make a big difference in preventing people from wasting their time. especially since the camera is fixed and you cant pan it around to get a better view of your surroundings.