Spoilers for Halo 4: Does Halsey ruin themes in Halo 4?

[Facetable]

One of the key themes that I think seems to run through 4 is humanization/humanity proving stronger than dehumanization/inhumanity - Chief is slowly learning to not be a machine throughout the game while facing off against the Ur-Didact - one who wishes to see humanity converted into a thoughtless army of Prometheans, Cortana's humanization in her battle against rampancy, the Spartan IV's being average people and not psychologically broken as children.

At the same time I think that this theme is undermined by the continued presence and prominence of a specific individual: Dr. Catherine Halsey

Halsey kidnapped hundreds of children, gave dying clone children to their parents, put the children through immense physical and psychological trauma(which killed some of them), made the children undergo an operation she knew would likely kill or incapacitate some of them(it did), all so that they could be used as another tool for human warfare(fighting the Insurrection).

She does claim that that they are some next step for humanity or such and such, but ultimately - shes's a war criminal whose actions are completely inhumane and unjustifiable. The problem with this is that she seems to be treated as morally-grey in the series(particularly 5) which isn't really appropriate given her actions and seems to run counter to the themes of 4(its also just kinda creepy in general)

Does anyone else feel this or is this just me?

[Akemua]

How is it unjustifiable? Putting morality aside, her actions are literally the only reason the whole of humanity isn't obliterated/enslaved.

Ya, it sucks lots of kids had to die and suffer. Halsey herself has stated multiple times that the things she's done are ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up. But why are we even weighing all of humanity over a couple hundred kids?

Again, it's messed up but the people in question, I.E the majority of Spartans don't actually hate her. At least the ones that worked with her. This becomes even more apparent once they see the state of the universe for themselves.

[Psychedelic Adventurer]

I had these exact same thoughts originally when Halo 4 first came out. The tension Halsey places on the central theme is a bit of a weird one, and something that obviously seems to have troubled the storywriters too. The KiloFive trilogy really hammers Halsey in the way you'd expect.
She IS a morally grey figure that commit(ed) atrocities which saved the human race. She felt she had a duty to the UNSC and to her work, justifying the atrocities as necessary sacrifices. Chief however, obviously sees her a mother figure to some extent, as do the Spartan 2's in general from what I remember.

So, does it ruin the theme? No, I don't think so. Halsey is a morally dubious character that helped end a war humanity couldn't have won otherwise. Also, taking into account her actions in the lore during and post the covanant war, we should consider her a True neutral/lawful evil character I think, to use D&D terminology.

[Psychedelic Adventurer]

Shadowclysm の投稿を引用：

How is it unjustifiable? Putting morality aside, her actions are literally the only reason the whole of humanity isn't obliterated/enslaved.

Ya, it sucks lots of kids had to die and suffer. Halsey herself has stated multiple times that the things she's done are ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up. But why are we even weighing all of humanity over a couple hundred kids?

Because everyone should. Western enlightenment places significance on the individual over the collective and furthermore, against radical utilitarian nutjobs that would actually absolve this rationale. Even the characters in the lore know this, it's something that a lot of them characters struggle with. And the ones' who don't, have significant mental conditioning stopping them.

[Facetable]

Shadowclysm の投稿を引用：

How is it unjustifiable? Putting morality aside, her actions are literally the only reason the whole of humanity isn't obliterated/enslaved.

Ya, it sucks lots of kids had to die and suffer. Halsey herself has stated multiple times that the things she's done are ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up. But why are we even weighing all of humanity over a couple hundred kids?

Again, it's messed up but the people in question, I.E the majority of Spartans don't actually hate her. At least the ones that worked with her. This becomes even more apparent once they see the state of the universe for themselves.

Alright so even if were putting morality aside It's definitely unjustifiable because:

1.The Spartan II's were made pre-Covenant contact - No threat of obliteration/enslavement. Their original purpose to crush the human rebellion/Insurrection. This was done as if making any other tool for conventional warfare, not some last ditch effort to save humanity

2. the Spartan IV's are proof that the same result could've been achieved without the atrocious actions. It may have taken something like an ORION II, but her method was not necessary


Also the whole not hating her is precisely the reason why its creepy given that she kidnapped them and that's clear in the II's who do hate her. Musa-096, one of the dropouts of the II program, created the IV program because he recognized it is important to have Spartans to deal with threats in the universe, but also understood that the way it was done with the II's and III's was wrong and hates Halsey as a result.

[MK_]

Facetable の投稿を引用：

Shadowclysm の投稿を引用：

How is it unjustifiable? Putting morality aside, her actions are literally the only reason the whole of humanity isn't obliterated/enslaved.

Ya, it sucks lots of kids had to die and suffer. Halsey herself has stated multiple times that the things she's done are ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up. But why are we even weighing all of humanity over a couple hundred kids?

Again, it's messed up but the people in question, I.E the majority of Spartans don't actually hate her. At least the ones that worked with her. This becomes even more apparent once they see the state of the universe for themselves.

Alright so even if were putting morality aside It's definitely unjustifiable because:

1.The Spartan II's were made pre-Covenant contact - No threat of obliteration/enslavement. Their original purpose to crush the human rebellion/Insurrection. This was done as if making any other tool for conventional warfare, not some last ditch effort to save humanity

2. the Spartan IV's are proof that the same result could've been achieved without the atrocious actions. It may have taken something like an ORION II, but her method was not necessary


Also the whole not hating her is precisely the reason why its creepy given that she kidnapped them and that's clear in the II's who do hate her. Musa-096, one of the dropouts of the II program, created the IV program because he recognized it is important to have Spartans to deal with threats in the universe, but also understood that the way it was done with the II's and III's was wrong and hates Halsey as a result.

The thing about this is that whenever the covenant were to erradicate humans, humans would have done the same. Spartan ll's began as counter insurgent assets that were not to be able to be morally broken when fighting their own species, unlike certain other spartan 4 (ehem mikey ehem) and Spartans 4's or even for this case, Spartans 3's would not be able to repell the prominent aggresion for the time left according to Halseys prediction of a civil war at full galaxy scale. The covenant just proved how effective humans can be if they were to be developed from early stages as human weapons

[Veeshan]

Shadowclysm の投稿を引用：

How is it unjustifiable? Putting morality aside, her actions are literally the only reason the whole of humanity isn't obliterated/enslaved.

Ya, it sucks lots of kids had to die and suffer. Halsey herself has stated multiple times that the things she's done are ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up. But why are we even weighing all of humanity over a couple hundred kids?

Again, it's messed up but the people in question, I.E the majority of Spartans don't actually hate her. At least the ones that worked with her. This becomes even more apparent once they see the state of the universe for themselves.

That's the problem; we arent weighing a couple hundred kids against humanity. We're weighing them against whatever difference Spartans would have made in the human versus human battles. Just because the random citizen you happen to murder in cold blood in broad daylight turned out to be a serial killer doesnt excuse your action, morally, legally, or practically.

Now if you want to claim the Spartan program saved the lives of a million colonists somehow (and Halsey could reasonably assume they would), that would be a valid argument. Horrible but valid.

You're comparing the wrong variables.

And the feelings of the victims toward their abuser is rarely relevant. Humans are too easily manipulated.

[Falleax]

The primary theme of Chief learning to be more Human and less machine is stupid in the first place because this is out of character for him. He was never a "broken" robot, he always had feelings and emotions, he just was stoic and displayed his emotions through body language. He joked around, was sarcastic, got sad and showed visible relief at the end of Halo 3. 343 completely misunderstood what Chief was.

[Veeshan]

Psychedelic Adventurer の投稿を引用：

I had these exact same thoughts originally when Halo 4 first came out. The tension Halsey places on the central theme is a bit of a weird one, and something that obviously seems to have troubled the storywriters too. The KiloFive trilogy really hammers Halsey in the way you'd expect.
She IS a morally grey figure that commit(ed) atrocities which saved the human race. She felt she had a duty to the UNSC and to her work, justifying the atrocities as necessary sacrifices. Chief however, obviously sees her a mother figure to some extent, as do the Spartan 2's in general from what I remember.

So, does it ruin the theme? No, I don't think so. Halsey is a morally dubious character that helped end a war humanity couldn't have won otherwise. Also, taking into account her actions in the lore during and post the covanant war, we should consider her a True neutral/lawful evil character I think, to use D&D terminology.

I'm unsure what part of her morality takes her out of the black Zone. How is she morally ambiguous? What's the good part?

I read the books, but it's been a long time, were the colonists Wars worse than I remember? They'd have to be pretty ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ bad.

[Veeshan]

Falleax の投稿を引用：

The primary theme of Chief learning to be more Human and less machine is stupid in the first place because this is out of character for him. He was never a "broken" robot, he always had feelings and emotions, he just was stoic and displayed his emotions through body language. He joked around, was sarcastic, got sad and showed visible relief at the end of Halo 3. 343 completely misunderstood what Chief was.

So first of all, those are surface-level emotions, easily faked. Secondly, it goes into much more detail in the book, the Spartans were definitely socially broken.

[Veeshan]

MKNavaG - S-III G331 の投稿を引用：

Facetable の投稿を引用：

Alright so even if were putting morality aside It's definitely unjustifiable because:

1.The Spartan II's were made pre-Covenant contact - No threat of obliteration/enslavement. Their original purpose to crush the human rebellion/Insurrection. This was done as if making any other tool for conventional warfare, not some last ditch effort to save humanity

2. the Spartan IV's are proof that the same result could've been achieved without the atrocious actions. It may have taken something like an ORION II, but her method was not necessary


Also the whole not hating her is precisely the reason why its creepy given that she kidnapped them and that's clear in the II's who do hate her. Musa-096, one of the dropouts of the II program, created the IV program because he recognized it is important to have Spartans to deal with threats in the universe, but also understood that the way it was done with the II's and III's was wrong and hates Halsey as a result.

The thing about this is that whenever the covenant were to erradicate humans, humans would have done the same. Spartan ll's began as counter insurgent assets that were not to be able to be morally broken when fighting their own species, unlike certain other spartan 4 (ehem mikey ehem) and Spartans 4's or even for this case, Spartans 3's would not be able to repell the prominent aggresion for the time left according to Halseys prediction of a civil war at full galaxy scale. The covenant just proved how effective humans can be if they were to be developed from early stages as human weapons

I honestly have no idea what point you're making, would you mind rephrasing?

[Falleax]

Veeshan の投稿を引用：

So first of all, those are surface-level emotions, easily faked. Secondly, it goes into much more detail in the book, the Spartans were definitely socially broken.

Yeah, they had a problem hanging out with non Spartans but 343 severely blew that out of proportion. Spartans didn't sit around hanging their head and moping and not everyone was an anti social weirdo. Kurt for example loved being social, which is why he was chosen to train the Spartan 3s.
Also, Chief clearly did not fake a single emotion throughout the trilogy, that makes no sense and would serve no purpose.

[The_Dybbuk_King]

Facetable の投稿を引用：

1.The Spartan II's were made pre-Covenant contact - No threat of obliteration/enslavement. Their original purpose to crush the human rebellion/Insurrection. This was done as if making any other tool for conventional warfare, not some last ditch effort to save humanity

This is definitely the most important detail imo. The whole Spartan-II program was repurposed only after the children already started fighting (and crushing) the rebel forces in the main systems. After the Covenant galssed Harvest, the UNSC really kind of treated the whole situation like, "Oh, Good thing these super soldiers were here this whole time. And uhhh.... Bad Halsey! You don't do that." -whispers to ONI- "good job."

[Veeshan]

Falleax の投稿を引用：

Veeshan の投稿を引用：

So first of all, those are surface-level emotions, easily faked. Secondly, it goes into much more detail in the book, the Spartans were definitely socially broken.

Yeah, they had a problem hanging out with non Spartans but 343 severely blew that out of proportion. Spartans didn't sit around hanging their head and moping and not everyone was an anti social weirdo. Kurt for example loved being social, which is why he was chosen to train the Spartan 3s.
Also, Chief clearly did not fake a single emotion throughout the trilogy, that makes no sense and would serve no purpose.

I actually had a close personal friend who is incredibly socially outgoing blow his head off. The kind of broken were talking about can easily be hidden. It could be something as tame as a Spartan never really being happy in their life, lack of attachment Etc, or it could be something as serious as all of them being Psychopathic murderers when not under Direct Control.

[Falleax]

Veeshan の投稿を引用：

I actually had a close personal friend who is incredibly socially outgoing blow his head off. The kind of broken were talking about can easily be hidden. It could be something as tame as a Spartan never really being happy in their life, lack of attachment Etc, or it could be something as serious as all of them being Psychopathic murderers when not under Direct Control.

First of all, that sucks man, I'm sorry to hear that.
Nonetheless however, we get a really good indication of Chief's personality throughout the trilogy, both through his words, actions and body language. His personality completely changes and lacks any subtlety in Halo 4 and 5, he may as well be a different person. I could understand if this change occurs after Halo 4, when he has time to realize he's responsible for inadvertently starting a new war and the deaths of several million people.

We also get a look into his mind in the books, First Strike is an excellent display of him growing as a person and changing to be more Human. He learns how much a single Human can accomplish and begins to seriously doubt whether he could kill another Human again, even if he were ordered. This kind of development is consistent with the rest of the games and his portrayal, Halo 4 Chief is not.

[MK_]

Veeshan の投稿を引用：

MKNavaG - S-III G331 の投稿を引用：

The thing about this is that whenever the covenant were to erradicate humans, humans would have done the same. Spartan ll's began as counter insurgent assets that were not to be able to be morally broken when fighting their own species, unlike certain other spartan 4 (ehem mikey ehem) and Spartans 4's or even for this case, Spartans 3's would not be able to repell the prominent aggresion for the time left according to Halseys prediction of a civil war at full galaxy scale. The covenant just proved how effective humans can be if they were to be developed from early stages as human weapons

I honestly have no idea what point you're making, would you mind rephrasing?

I meant to answer the point about Spartan IV's