I don't understand how to properly utilise the Thief

[Aria Athena]

I'm lv 8 and I still haven't figured him out. So far I could have done every fight without him and barely anything would have changed. Apart from bombs and the occasional backstab, he rarely makes any impact. He is by far the most useless character in my party.

Precision debuff is nice, but rarely needed, poison I find to be rather weak, same with slash tendons. His multi attack most of the time does nothing, because protection weakens it a lot. What am I missing?

[Fringehunter7719]

He has a few things going for him:

• High base precision - allows you to invest in strength more and earlier than many other characters. I'd be looking at around 35 strength / +35 impact by the end of the game. At level 10 33 strength before gear is a good benchmark. At level 8 I'd guess +20 to +25 impact is about right.
  
  
• Lone Wolf passive - One of very few positional passives that are both powerful and easy to use. 10% crit for 2 points is a big deal compared to most passives.
  
  
• Bomberman passive - Buy all the ice bombs you see (most come from visiting the Pharmagician once per chapter), they become AOE with this passive making them probably the strongest crowd control in the game, with reasonable damage to boot.
  
  
• Sharpened Daggers passive - Makes his standard melee attack a force to be reckoned with.
  
  
• Poison scales to enemy hit points - it's not great on weak enemies, but some bosses are not immune and take over 100 points of damage per tick. Strong 300-500 HP enemies found on the highest difficulty are also hurt a lot by it. It then sets up the powerful Sharpened Daggers and Aim for the Head passives as well.
  
  
• Cowardly Finish - An extra attack situationally.
  
  
• Nervous Burst - The most damaging ability in the game. Take the 4 hits upgrade and never look back, it deals huge, huge damage. Remember that *each* hit gains your impact bonus, so it deals +4 damage per point of strength. It deals almost twice as much damage after the upgrade than before. With your high crit chance 400 damage is quite possible on an about average roll.

Here's an end game Thief setup I liked:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2316144750
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2316144537

Even then that might be too much precision, although it's hard to get it down further late game.

Note the upgrade to Sneaky Strike for the reduced cooldown more than the secondary effect.

I think the mistake it's easy to make with the Thief is undervaluing strength and overvaluing agility and stealth, which I do not think is even worth taking as the action economy penalty is too big. I'm not sure on the precision cap, but barring Nervous Burst it seems to be 97. With backstab and support there's no point going beyond that and you could argue even less would be better.

Rely on movement (his first boots have a point of it, which helps for a large part of the game), hitting backstabs and, importantly, a lot of delay turn. If you have to eat the occasional attack of opportunity (that you can't remove with Elf or Priestess who will dodge it), then just live with it.

[Fringehunter7719]

Something I should have mentioned, but forgot:

One of the things that makes strength/impact so good is that it's a flat bonus to damage, it's not affected by skill multipliers. So a 60% hit is 60% weapon damage plus *full* impact bonus, not 60% of it. A skill that hits 3 times for 60% weapon damage deals 180% weapon damage, but 300% impact damage.

This means weak AOE skills, like the Thief's Blinding powder go from 6-12 damage (almost nothing after protection) up to maybe 38-44 damage, which for a 9 tile AOE allowing you to usually hit 2-4 targets is a hefty chunk of damage, even ignoring the potential for crits and for two debuffs that last several turns.

[Aria Athena]

Originally posted by Fringehunter7719:

One of the things that makes strength/impact so good is that it's a flat bonus to damage, it's not affected by skill multipliers. So a 60% hit is 60% weapon damage plus *full* impact bonus, not 60% of it.

This certainly helps. Sigh, it would have been useful for the game to convey it better.

This is him currently, he didn't have any STR until level 5 though. To be honest, at some point I stopped paying attention to him and left him in a corner, only now I decided to make him useful.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2316208770

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2316209356

I can't invest more STR now, because he keeps running out of stamina and health. I'm still not convinced about poison. I've seen it doing 7 or 8 damage to enemies with 180 health. So far I only have single target poison attacks, save for the bombs, and it is quite often resisted. I have come across enemies with 400+ health, but these guys I focus first anyway. Even if I manage to poison them (and they are not immune), they wont live long enough to matter. When I get the aoe poison and face bosses with a ton of health and not immune to it, I expect results.

I agree with stealth and agility. He starts with 14 AGL and all his gear so far gives bonuses, he doesn't need any more. Also I don't know what the point of stealth is. Even when it's used against you, who cares. I tried it, I found no use for it.

Taking an attack of opportunity is not an issue on it's own, but for some reason the Thief seems to be public enemy No 1. There is no way he will go behind an enemy and said enemy will not target him. Whenever he steps in the front lines, someone always slaps him and it was not rare for him to get 2-shot. Now it takes a bit more, but he still dies way faster than the Barbarian for example, even though I send him alone to engage 3-4 enemies and he just has 50 more health. This is a mystery to me.

At least I can see the potential now.

[Fringehunter7719]

Yeah, your build looks solid. You're right about stamina regen, it can be tricky. I solved the one in my picture with the ring that gives +10 con, I can't remember where you get it. It comes with a -heal debuff, which you can partially offset with one of the other items that gives a bonus to healing received. This allowed his stats to be almost entirely in strength.

One key thing is not to choose and use all the most stamina expensive abilities. I found the Ogre had the biggest problem of all, he burned out by turn 2-3 a lot. I ended up dropping Dwarf Throw because it was just too stamina heavy. I *love* the ability and the damage it deals, it's fun and effective, but just too expensive, when you can fire off a bunch of turns of PloinkPloink and Savage Tremors in its place.

If I can make one suggestion, I would consider using a respec potion from the inn to drop Poison Bolt for Cowardly Finish (with left upgrade, it's not enough damage without). It's not that rare to be able to leave a target that's already acted and is low on health for him to finish, you can then follow up with a standard melee or ranged shot on a second target. I got a lot more use from that, though situational, than Poison Bolt, which doesn't really end up doing more damage than just a standard arrow shot does (the version you've picked does less, in fact, unless the poison ticks for several turns). Plus that 50 stamina cost is quite a lot.

If you want a ranged debuff option, can I also recommend looking at the *right* upgrade for the Ranger's Destabilizing Shot? It has better range, better damage and arguably a better debuff. You must take the *right* upgrade though, as it makes the shot an auto-hit, never dodged never parried, where the left upgrade does not. I actually took both this and the Poisoned Shot on my Ranger, which I felt turned another not-so-useful character into a better late game option*.

The thief benefits a lot from his last couple of talents, upgrading the blinding powder and Nervous Burst are two of his best talent points spent in the active tree. So he's appreciably better on levels 9-10 than in the mid levels. You're just on the cusp of that, so hopefully you'll finally get some decent use out of him.

Best of luck, enjoy the rest of your playthrough!



*With the bow that grants an extra overwatch attack he ends up being quite a respectable archer, with overwatch again benefiting from multiple full impact bonuses per turn, with just his first turn spent on the one buff in the game that really shines - Tactic: Protection!.

[Aria Athena]

Yeah, Poison Bolt is just there due to lack of something better. I will take Cowardly Finish when he starts cowardly finishing stuff. I don't take ranged attacks with the Ranger because I play him as a tank in order for him to be useful even if he just stands there. Hurtful Blow is unexpectedly good.

Tactic: Protection is awesome and just so much better than his other options. I also use lv 3 of Loubet's Anticipation. I open with it and lv 2 Youclid's Blessing, and even if I don't cast them again, I have a very good start which I like. Not sure I'm keeping the blessing, but Loubet's is very nice.

[Fringehunter7719]

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

Yeah, Poison Bolt is just there due to lack of something better. I will take Cowardly Finish when he starts cowardly finishing stuff. I don't take ranged attacks with the Ranger because I play him as a tank in order to be useful even if he just stands there. Hurtful Blow is unexpectedly good.

Tactic: Protection is awesome and just so much better than his other options. I also use lv 3 of Loubet's Anticipation. I open with it and lv 2 Youclid's Blessing, and even if I don't cast them again, I have a very good start which I like. Not sure I'm keeping the blessing, but Loubet's is very nice.

Interesting, I never found either of those buffs worth it, the priestess default ranged attack adds as much damage as Youclidh's Blessing (it's just 5 points per character who isn't buffing/debuffing or missing, and she hits for like 80+ in the end) and saves 3 talent points and some stamina for other options, although admittedly that means you don't get the initiative benefit. Loubet's Anticipation ends up wasting the precision on almost everyone (thief and elf particularly are always overcapped from mid game onwards), plus it competes with the tactic on turn 1 to actually be useful.

If I'm spending turn 1 randomia it's invariably on the Wizardess (or the Paladin, who clearly isn't in your playthrough) who has essentially no resource management or cooldown issues (thanks bunny). Thinking about it, this might be too end-game focused though, I can see more value earlier.

I guess it just shows there's more than one way to play!

[Aria Athena]

This is how I use it. Youclidh's Blessing is indeed only for the initiative. Loubet's Anticipation almost caps the Barbarian and the Ogre and gives that nice +2 movement. I cast those 2 in the beginning of my turn, I delay everyone else's while the enemy usually mostly wastes their turn moving half way and then the party gets to play 2 times in a row. By using on the second round stun, knock down and freeze debuffs, I get to play 3 times before some of the enemies get to raise their sword. It doesn't persist, but it's enough to thin their melee numbers and open the way to their back line. Also they usually lose their numbers advantage.

Or if there is a certain caster in the back who attacks twice on his turn, I do the same, but charge with the whole party until he is dead. Then I invert the battle field and use their back line as my back line.

[Fringehunter7719]

Cool stuff, sounds interesting. Thanks for the conversation.

[Aria Athena]

A fun fact is that because buffs end in the beginning of the character's turn, when they are already playing, the initiative bonus lasts one more round.

[Fringehunter7719]

I think the game is even deeper and better designed than I first thought it was. Looking at some info in the guides section I see all sorts of suggestions of things that worked for the authors, but now I have played through twice I wouldn't do. Characters like the Thief and Elf that I initially thought were weak end up being quite good. Stacking +healing onto the Ogre and watching him heal 80HP per kill and come out as top healer is amazing once you find it.

Admittedly the Wizardess was no surprise, everyone seems to notice that she can just go all in on int and be the strongest character by a mile.

I was really into agility at first, but once I learned how to build characters without it I realise how there are so many more options, some of which are appreciably stronger. I was surprised with the Paladin when I learned the impact and taunt mechanics that she can actually go with 0 agility for an entire run and be amazing, she has so many auto-hit abilities, including parry criticals as well as her passive on her defence stance which synergises with randomia bonus action and taunt or retaliation. Although it's a measly 10-15 damage at base, if you buff her up to +40 impact that's a no cooldown 50-55 damage auto-hit AOE that's also reducing her incoming damage. Way, way better than I ever imagined. Plus, I think along with overwatch, opportunity attacks and healing it's the only way to avoid crit fails.

The Dwarf's taunt I looked straight past, but in fact it being ranged and opportunity attacks not missing makes it insanely good for grabbing a tough melee from amongst a swarm of your own melee and just making it insta-gib itself through movement. Handy for keeping the Thief alive and making the most of extra opportunity hits from Thief and Ogre.

I also looked past most of the buffs (because most are bad, I assumed pretty much all were) in my first run, but looking at it, I think you're right about Youclidh's Blessing and the Barbarian shout is worth it as well.

I do wish the Minstrel didn't scale half his attacks with strength (the tooltips and explanation text are wrong, for some reason) and that the abilities which never miss were somehow marked in the talent tree. It's ridiculously hard to find out things like exactly one of the Ranger's upgrades to Destabilizing Shot making it auto-hit as things are now. Overall these are very small gripes though. And it does create a little element of discovery and feeling of mastery when you find them.

[Aria Athena]

The Barbarian buff is pretty good too, but I prefer having the Ranger's buff instead so that the Barbarian doesn't lose a turn. Plus I could really use the skill points with him, I like many of his abilities.

Dwarf's taunt is very nice. Another thing I use for attacks of opportunity is Scare. Even if they don't die they usually miss a turn, because of how far away they have run.

It was a tough choice between the Priestess and the Paladin. I ended up going with the Priestess because of how easy it was at that point for enemies to kill someone in 1 turn, or spam aoe damage. After level 5-6 it wasn't much of an issue and the Paladin probably is better, but during those first levels I needed the extra heal to res people. Her Lightning Chain is also very strong. That thing doesn't hit 4 times, it hits almost until there is nothing else to hit. Sometimes I just sacrifice a bit of health to damage 7-8 enemies. The Minstrel seemed fine, but the party was not missing whatever he was offering, it was missing heal or tank.

I wish I knew earlier that the Impact is added everywhere and is not just a part of weapon damage.

One thing I would really appreciate, is for buffs to not have a chance for critical failure. Also I wish the Elven Ricochet wouldn't aim crates, just why?

[Fringehunter7719]

I think it's thematic, the audiobook series is a D&D parody about ineptitude and failure of noob adventurers, I've heard. So mishaps, friendly fire and bad rolls are fundamental to the concept.

I quite like the crit fail as implemented, it means there's no obsessing about exact hit caps like there is in XCOM and the randomia gauge reward ends up balancing it up a lot. Although there's a temptation to just endlessly use 1 pointers if you do hit max and chuck in the 4 pointer it can turn a whole fight.

[Alliances]

This is a very good topic. There is good insight here on how to play the Thief but also the other class. Congrat to you two!!!

Aria Athena:

By the way, about Youclidh's Lightnin Chain, just a bit more info on that. Devs on their Discord confirmed me that the tooltips they made for this spell doesn't actually communicate well how this spell really work. The mecanic for It is such unique and different from all the other spell, that they didn't really knew how to explain it well. (They might rework the tooltips's text and picture to try to explain it more better.)

How this spell work actually is like this:

The spell is a single target ennemy spell that can and will bounce back to all adjacent characters or objects touching each other in a radius of 3 square all around the initial target. With the exception of never double dipping on a target that has already been hit by the chain.

The spell as no limit of target. (Well, actually, it has a hard lock cap of 41 square, counting the inital target. But chance of having that much target all clutched and touching themselve like this is unlikely.)

The upgrade version extend the radius to 4 square around the inital target (and increase damage), while the other upgrade stay at 3 radius, but the chain will skip any friendly unit in the chain's radius. (Although it is a good thing for you, it possibly can give more chance to cutting short the chain reaction by not being able to "jump" on your character to then on any other potential ennemy target.)

[Fringehunter7719]

There's a slight peculiarity in that although it won't spread to a friendly target it can still be cast on a friendly target - it just won't damage them. This makes a lot of good options for picking out a group of enemies to blast and moving your Ranger (the only character likely to have higher initiative) into the position to do it.

The 150% damage modifier on the friendly fire included version also ends up being a little underwhelming as it's only an additional 60% weapon damage (about 24 end game). Impact, for reasons mentioned upthread, is not increased.

[Aria Athena]

That explains it for the Lightning Chain. It spreads roughly 4 square radius around the target, because there have been time were no everyone was getting hit and I could control it a bit.

Also I just noticed that Nervous Burst actually does damage, because it does 3 times the projected damage . Come on, I thought it was doing close to nothing all this time.