Woodland Alliance: now I'm baffled

[Ghostlight]

Just started tying the WA. Weird things happen.

1) I seem never to be able to pay an Ambush or pre-built Armourers when a lone sympathy token is attacked. Is this correct?

2) Even at that, I had a Bird Ambush in hand for ages and after multiple attacks against my tokens, my Warriors and my bases, it finally (on the 4th attack) asked if I wanted to use the Ambush. When I can use Ambush as WA and when I can't is not remotely consistent. It was a Bird so I can use it on ANY attack against me I thought.

3) Once I have 3 bases on the board do I lose the ability to revolt?? I understood I could always revolt if I had the supporters.

Many thanks

[Anolise]

You should be able to play an ambush any time you are attacked, if you have an ambush card matching the clearing - regardless if you have warriors there or not. If you can't then it should be considered a bug.

In order to revolt you must be able to actually put a base in that clearing. So you lose the ability to revolt when you have 3 bases. But even with fewer than 3 bases, you must have an unbuilt base matching the suit that you want to perform a revolt in.

[[FAUCᴇT] Psychopath]

Pay attention to your opponent's crafted cards, one of them makes them immune to ambushes when they're the instigator.
Also Armorers wont help a lone token, it only would block the rolled hits, not the hit from being defenseless.

[Gluke]

1) armorers discards only rolled hits and does not affect defenseless bonus, so maybe the game is smart and wouldn't let you waste armorers.
2) Ambush is a bug, try to get screenshots of the situation - read the comment above, there is a card that prevents ambush cards from being used
3) you can have only 3 based at once (1 of each type), so that's correct behavior

[ThorneHill27]

Originally posted by FAUCᴇT Psychopath:

Pay attention to your opponent's crafted cards, one of them makes them immune to ambushes when they're the instigator.

It appears to me that the game doesn’t inform you what’s happening when you’re attacked by an opponent with a crafted, persistent anti-ambush protection card. While you *can* look at their player mats to see what they have crafted, albeit not during battles, it seems a questionable design decision not to notify you of the existence of such a crafted protection card at the start of a battle. :-0

[Ghostlight]

I'm guessing they had the anti-Ambush card. I didn't even know such a card existed, I am that new.

[marcelvdpol]

It seems strange to me that Armorers doesn't discard the "Automatic" Defenseless hit. Also, the popup to play DOES occur for a lone Woodland Alliance token, but ONLY on the first combat of the turn, not on any following combats during the same turn.

I'm rather baffled by this, as 1) Armorers should stop all hits regardless of source (The Eery bonus hit for example) and 2) You should be able to play Armorers on any battle, not only the FIRST battle of the turn.

My strategy to save my Armorers card for the Influence token where I wanted to start a Revolt was unsuccesful due to both above points AND the game not explaining why this was the case.

[Velensk]

Armors says 'rolled hits' on the card. Rolled hits refers to the hits gotten from the dice, it does not count bonus hits (from Commander or undefended).

[marcelvdpol]

Originally posted by Velensk:

Armors says 'rolled hits' on the card. Rolled hits refers to the hits gotten from the dice, it does not count bonus hits (from Commander or undefended).

There are multiple ways to interpret that. For example, Commander or Defenseless gives you +1 hits on top of what you rolled. So if you rolled 1 and have Commander, the result is 2 hits. However, the result of 2 hits is still ROLLED (because you rolled dice and get a modifier). Therefore, Armorers should modify 2 hits to 0 hits in above example.

It doesn't, but doesn't explain WHY it doesn't [for example, the difference between ROLLED hits and AUTOMATIC bonus hits], nor does it explain WHY I didn't have the option to play the card in the combat I wanted to play it. The Armorer card should clearly say so, because in the game I cannot browse to the rules and read the part of the rules which states this.

Looking at the rules for how combat works and the bit about Extra Hits, nowhere does it say that Extra Hits do not count as Rolled Hits; they are simply Hits in the same manner as that the dice produce Hits. Nor does the Armorer Card explain what "rolled hits" are compared to "non-rolled hits". Ergo, Armorer should stop both Hits from dice as well as Bonus Hits, as the rules make no distinction between the two and neither does the Armorer card.

Attacker Hits = MIN(Dice Rolled, # Warriors) + Extra Hits

[[FAUCᴇT] Psychopath]

Section 4.3.2 of the Law of Root does distinguish rolled hits from extra hits, then in step 3 of combat all hits are resolved simultaneously. The only hits that aren't resolved during this step are from ambushes played in step 1, as they are resolved immediately if the ambush was not foiled.

[The Invisible Hand]

Originally posted by marcelvdpol:

Also, the popup to play DOES occur for a lone Woodland Alliance token, but ONLY on the first combat of the turn, not on any following combats during the same turn.

That hasn't been my experience. I've had turns where I got multiple opportunities to use an Ambush/Armorers/Sappers on defense.

As someone else noted, it is possible that the game doesn't give you the opportunity to waste your Armorers on cases where it won't do you any good, like when you have a lone, defenseless token.

There are multiple ways to interpret that. For example, Commander or Defenseless gives you +1 hits on top of what you rolled. So if you rolled 1 and have Commander, the result is 2 hits. However, the result of 2 hits is still ROLLED (because you rolled dice and get a modifier). Therefore, Armorers should modify 2 hits to 0 hits in above example.

No, you have one "rolled" hit and one "extra" hit. The Root rules are very clear on the difference between the two. See here: https://root.seiyria.com/#4.3.2-step-2:-roll-dice-and-add-extra-hits

As far as I can tell, this digital version is implementing these rules correctly.

My strategy to save my Armorers card for the Influence token where I wanted to start a Revolt was unsuccesful due to both above points AND the game not explaining why this was the case.

That's a good strategy, but Armorers won't help you do it. Ambush and Sappers both will, though.

[marcelvdpol]

No, you have one "rolled" hit and one "extra" hit. The Root rules are very clear on the difference between the two. See here: https://root.seiyria.com/#4.3.2-step-2:-roll-dice-and-add-extra-hits

As far as I can tell, this digital version is implementing these rules correctly.

Then it appears we have a different definition of "very clear". The link you provided doesn't state that the number appearing on your die roll are defined as the "rolled hits" and that they are different from "extra hits". If something is referring to "rolled hits" as opposed to "hits" there has to be a definition to distinguish them.

There is something to distinguish Extra Hits from hits so that a card can target "Extra Hits" instead of hits but "Rolled Hits" is not defined. Thus, anything targeting "Rolled Hits" is targeting "Hits" and therefore can also target "Extra Hits". So there is a set "Hits" which has a subset "Extra Hits" but there is no set "Rolled Hits" defined; since there is no definition of "Rolled Hits" the definition could also encompass the entire set "Hits". The assumption that "Rolled Hits" is the set of Hits excluding "Extra Hits" is just that: an assumption.

Maximum Rolled Hits.The maximum hits you can deal from rolling equals the number of your warriors in the clearing of battle, whether you are the attacker or defender.

Note that it says "maximum hits from rolling", NOT maximum Rolled Hits. Thus, hits you get from rolling are Hits, not "Rolled Hits".

Extra Hits.After counting hits from rolling, the attacker and defender can add extra hits by using special abilities or other effects in their play areas. (Extra hits are not limited by the number of warriors in the clearing of battle.)

Note that here is clearly refers to extra hits as opposed to "Hits".

[[FAUCᴇT] Psychopath]

Originally posted by marcelvdpol:

Note that it says "maximum hits from rolling", NOT maximum Rolled Hits. Thus, hits you get from rolling are Hits, not "Rolled Hits".

This sounds like you're just being obtuse on purpose, it literally says "Rolled Hits"

The rule on Maximum Rolled Hits just states that your real strength for the battle can't exceed the number of attacking units that you have present for that battle. If you roll a 3 but have 1 guy, that's where you're capped at instead.
Reiterating what it says doesn't mean anything if you recognize what it means and implies but don't want to accept it as writ.
There isnt any point in arguing here if you won't accept section 4.3 of the law of root to be sufficient. You'd get more headway bringing that up with Patrick Leder to have the rules state that rolled hits are hits you get from rolling so this specific argument regarding armorers never happens again.

[marcelvdpol]

Originally posted by FAUCᴇT Psychopath:

Originally posted by marcelvdpol:

Note that it says "maximum hits from rolling", NOT maximum Rolled Hits. Thus, hits you get from rolling are Hits, not "Rolled Hits".

This sounds like you're just being obtuse on purpose, it literally says "Rolled Hits"

The rule on Maximum Rolled Hits just states that your real strength for the battle can't exceed the number of attacking units that you have present for that battle. If you roll a 3 but have 1 guy, that's where you're capped at instead.
Reiterating what it says doesn't mean anything if you recognize what it means and implies but don't want to accept it as writ.
There isnt any point in arguing here if you won't accept section 4.3 of the law of root to be sufficient. You'd get more headway bringing that up with Patrick Leder to have the rules state that rolled hits are hits you get from rolling so this specific argument regarding armorers never happens again.

I was being nitpicky on purpose because I read the card and the in-game rules three times before I came to the conclusion why the card wasn't working for what I intended.

Since on some occasions the card wasn't even available for playing and at other times it was and I couldn't figure out the logic until I got one of the cards which specified "Hits" instead of "rolled hits".

[Shoecrown]

Rolled Hits are from the dice. Extra Hits are everything else. Armorer only affects Rolled Hits, so Eyrie Commander with Brutal Tactics could attack 3 defenseless Cats buildings, and would deal 3 damage even if the Eyrie rolled 0/0 AND the Cats played Armorer. The Eyrie would get +1 from Commander, +1 from Brutal Tactics, and +1 from Defenseless. In short, don't play Armorer on defenseless clearings.