This has to be fixed, even in the boardgame!

[ivan.sman]

So I played marquise. It's the first turn of playing and the first to move is vagabond and he's ranger...as first move he found a sword searching the ruin near the cat's fortress, as consequence of having a crossbow and two swords he immediately moved to assault the fortress in the up right corner with even two buildings built there! (for more protection I thought)..first kill of the only cat there with crossbow, I returned it with field hospital but then he had two swords to attack me double times... I started to play the game without a fortress and two starting buildings... definitely he was very lucky (1/4 of chance to find a sword exactly there and being first player to move) but still this is a possibility that shouldn't exist at all. The match was completely unbalanced. This has to be fixed but even in the boardgame version! What do you think?

[l33sy]

When vagabong cripples the cat this early, it gives too much power to birds and you can't really have that... Not a good strat imho.

[ivan.sman]

Originally posted by l33sy_cz:

When vagabong cripples the cat this early, it gives too much power to birds and you can't really have that... Not a good strat imho.

I agree but this is not a matter of bad or good moves, the problem is that cat's fortress shouldn't be so exposed in the first turn of playing... Another time happened that birds with commander leader in his first turn and (again) playing before marquise, starting from the right up corner, managed to arrive at the fortress and destroy it. Defenetly a bad move, cause he completely exposed himself but still, the game for cats was broken from the first turn cause to an action that should be avoid but at this stage remains possible, especially for new players that simply want to try and don't care about balance. Btw Vagabond with that trick gained 7 points in his first turn...not bad at all. And I want to point that we are talking about the FORTRESS of the evil empire of cats! It can't be conquered at the start of the war so easily!

[AnotherVenue]

How did the whole game play out though?

Root is all about knowing when to sprint and when to chill.

Destroying the Keep first play seems good on paper and looks like a power move, but its not that great.

- Birds have permission to sprint, playing 2 Decrees to gain early map presence
- The ranger can only refresh 3 items, but used all 5 to smack the cats
- He will have to use his full mobility to get back to the next ruin for his early items.
- He paints a target on his back as the perceived current threat

It behooves either/both of you to smack the trash panda and make him head back to the forest early.

Honestly this criticism sort of comes off like, "It's OP cause it happened to ME!".

[Dire Wolf CS]

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts!

If you run across bugs or have additional feedback, please feel free to drop us a line using the in-game feedback function so we can take a look!

[ivan.sman]

Originally posted by Lucas:

How did the whole game play out though?

Root is all about knowing when to sprint and when to chill.

Destroying the Keep first play seems good on paper and looks like a power move, but its not that great.

- Birds have permission to sprint, playing 2 Decrees to gain early map presence
- The ranger can only refresh 3 items, but used all 5 to smack the cats
- He will have to use his full mobility to get back to the next ruin for his early items.
- He paints a target on his back as the perceived current threat

It behooves either/both of you to smack the trash panda and make him head back to the forest early.

Honestly this criticism sort of comes off like, "It's OP cause it happened to ME!".

I agree with you as well, I already said that it's definitely a bad opening move but my point here isn't a criticism about how much OP is ranger... And it's not neither about the fact that happened to ME. Actually is quite the opposite, cause it could happen to EVERYBODY!
I'm just saying that the game sometimes offers to an inexperience/sadist new player the opportunity for a bad move which however cancel the strong and only one ability of cats before they can do anything cause it can happen before their first turn! It's true that cats are the only one that can lose their faction ability, but they should have the mathematical certainty of playing at least one turn before that! 😅

[ivan.sman]

Originally posted by dwd_admin:

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts!

If you run across bugs or have additional feedback, please feel free to drop us a line using the in-game feedback function so we can take a look!

Thank you for having read my note.

-I would fix it starting with two cats on fortress instead of 1. This wouldn't offer the mathematical certainty of avoiding a first successful assault at the fortress in those particular cases but at least would provide more threat to a player who was willing to dive like a kamikaze into the cat base.

-Ore maybe adding an exception according to which cat fortress can't be destroy in the first round of play. I think everybody agree that its a bad and compromising action put so much effort to destroy cats fortress at the first turn, so why not simply forbid the thing?

[Arasa]

Hey! So this has unfortunately happened to me in numerous games, and the results were mixed. You are definitely not getting 30 points if the vagabond sacks your keep. Unfortunately, this tends to favor the woodland alliance, because your role early is to make sure they don't get any early bases.
Here is where table talk is essential (thank goodness chat is available). Just make sure the vagabond knows that the responsibility to kill rebels has fallen to them, since you cannot do that anymore. They will either listen or the rebels will win.

Your focus as the cats needs to shift to "how do I dominance?" which is always an option for you. Spamming recruiters under the guise of "gotta make sure the vagabond doesnt kill me again" then moving in for the win the absolute moment you hit 10pts

Hope this was helpful :)

[migpacheco]

The big issue also is that in the digital version, field hospitals only kick in at the beginning of the cats turn! This exact same thing happened to me and the game is pretty much over turn one. Ranger with no extra items at all pops in first turn, crossbows the one warrior then can defenceless destroy building and keep. In the analog version, as long as you have the right card, the warrior is instantly back in field with the hospitals so the vagabond can't just go straight to the building. Im seeing a lot of people doing this, and the issue is that you are absolutely ruining the game for the cat player, they may as well resign right there.

[z|fn@b]

@ivan.sman: I understand your point and feel your pain...
and my 1st thought was: "damn, this is bad... losing the 2 faction abilities right away, with no say about it...".
YET, when taking the time to step back, cool down and get a level headed perspective on the situation, I feel it's not a real problem:
- the game is FAR from over, you can still win this in plenty different ways: it just got a little bit more challenging...
- does it fundamentally change your plans? what you were set out to do? not in the slightest... you can still craft/dominate your way to victory (or any other way you see fit)
- is the castle (and the 2 abilities it grants you) that important? the answer is mostly NO, 9 times out of 10. here is why:
. cats losing the castle during the game is not uncommon, and many still manage to win
. ok, but they lose it mid-game or late you might answer: sure, but many times they might not even have used it at all or just once! (it is so common FOR ME to not use it: either I don't have the right cards at the right moment, either when I do (have the right card) most of the time (unfortunately) it is to save just 1 poor cat which I don't feel spending a card for is a good deal (so I decline). 2nd ability: noone can place a piece there. yea, sure: it helps defend a place for which I might already be spending to much focus on, reminding me every step of the way this is my sacred/holy place WHICH is ADAMANT not to lose! DO NOT LOSE IT, EVER! (me saying to myself). yet, this way of thinking encumbers your agility (more on that later)
. every time I win with the cat: did the 2 faction abilities played a DECISIVE role in my victory? 9 times out of 10: NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST
- losing it, should help you be more agile: you got freed about wondering of this "sacred" place. no need to worry so much about this clearing anymore, you can go wherever you want, free like the wind, taking some clearings, losing some, shifting your gravity centers as you go: you just unleashed your mobility factor! use it. maybe this clearing had few building spots in the 1st place anyway!
- it might, even more so, be a blessing in disguise: the vagabond is taking the lead, you are now perceived as weakened (or even weak for a long time). the vagabond just painted a target on his back. other players should always worry about who will be the leaders/their competitor in point: the vagabond jumped that ladder, you just entered the zone where other players FEEL (and I believe wrongly so) that you are not a threat anymore for the time being and that they can cut you some slack to counter the factions that are truly gonna be a problem in the long run. IT IS NATURAL FOR THEM TO DO SO. and that could be their downfall if you play it right.
- remember, politicking is a big part of this game, especially IRL or online with friends. it is harder politicking online with strangers, but it still can be done/used
- even if feel like you are too behind in points after many turns, you still are one of the better factions to go for a domination and steal the victory from any other player ahead...
- all in all, if you know the real board game and its extensions, it's all about creating a mix that put you in so many different situations/scenarios, and the key to success is then way more about you ADAPT to all those changes:
. 3 more maps (with their own features/mechanics)
. 4 more factions: riverfolk/lizards/corvids/moles (+ a 2nd vagabond in play): all rule breakers in their own way...
. just as an example: the riverfolk are in play? then I need to worry about rivers as path and mercenaries that both can be used by all players!
. 9 profiles of vagabonds
. a second different deck of cards, replacing entirely the standard one
. random clearings, "favor of the..." cards: 4 nukes per card, launched simultaneously (your castle doesn't survive those)
bottom line, everything in this game is set to derail your plans. never assume something for granted. the mix of all those above, starting with which factions are present will make up for VERY different games, MANY in which you WILL have a disadvantage at some point or another. the sooner might not be the worse, quite the opposite. your goal is to navigate through those hard times (that everyone will know at some point) and set you up in a better position for later turns.
never surrender! victory is ours for the taking ;)

[Shoecrown]

While this may be a matter of opinion, I agree with OP that the Vagabond should not be able to destroy the Keep before the Cats have a chance to play their first turn. With that said, I think this can be "fixed" by implementing a common balance suggestion: Mandating Cats go first. If the Marquise decide to leave their Keep relatively defenseless after their first turn, I think it's fair game for the Vagabond to execute an early coup de grace. This change doesn't completely nullify the possibility of it happening, but at least provides the Cats some agency so that they don't "Start" the game crippled.

[ivan.sman]

I think that cats abilities arent so weak or ignorable... In fact I think are the strongest abilities of all the package (expansions included) and I think also this is the reason why only you as cat player can lose them by losing the fortress.
Being able to recover a huge amount of your dead soldiers is an essential element especially for a dominance strategy. It Is up to the cat player to make good use of his special ability, for example targeting in advance a specif clearing for a big attack just cause you know that you will recover most of your lost troups, and this is absolutely important for keeping your number of soldiers higher than that of other players. Field hospital is often seen as a difensive measure, but actually it shows and gives his best when you adopt an offensive prospective.
Also, the fact that opponents can't put any tokens on the fortress clearing means one less clearing for crafting things by them and one less clearing to look after for you since it's the hardest one to conquer.......Or at least should be one of the hardest one cause it (should) depend by the player, if he wants to defend it or not. This is my point after all: you take the income based on the risks that you take but if I start the game without my abilities it's not more challenging or "different"...it's simply a wrong start for cats.

[Mahasuchi]

You can get pretty bad starts with any faction. I played woodland alliance against AI and because the marquise kept destroying my sympathy and I couldn't get a leg up until halfway into the game. I chalked it up to initial bad placement of my sympathy, but I was playing hard difficulty the first time and I was expecting the marquise to play aggressive so that was my strategy too. I've also had an eyrie start where I was forced into anarchy on the second turn and got my butt sent back to the woods as a vagabond thanks to an alliance revolt. You can't always predict these types of situations and they're normal for asymmetric games. It would be really hard to balance because someone will always find an exploit.

[ivan.sman]

Originally posted by Mahasuchi:

You can get pretty bad starts with any faction. I played woodland alliance against AI and because the marquise kept destroying my sympathy and I couldn't get a leg up until halfway into the game. I chalked it up to initial bad placement of my sympathy, but I was playing hard difficulty the first time and I was expecting the marquise to play aggressive so that was my strategy too. I've also had an eyrie start where I was forced into anarchy on the second turn and got my butt sent back to the woods as a vagabond thanks to an alliance revolt. You can't always predict these types of situations and they're normal for asymmetric games. It would be really hard to balance because someone will always find an exploit.

I experienced as well hard times with every faction cause to an "exaggerated attention" from one other opponent, and yeah, truth is that you can't do much about it when things goes like that. Not every player knows what is best for a good balance of the forest without a few matches in the bag yet (Im not referring to A.I. of course)... But one thing is a bad game cause to inexperienced players, another thing is a match messed up from the start cause one of the players has been deprived of his quality even before the game start for him. Its way more frustrating. It's almost like playing a match against birds that can't win ties for control, or vagabond that has to observed control rules for movements...from turn 1.

[Lionheartwolf]

Yeah, I agree. One of the first strategies I found as a Vagabond was to just immediately rush the cats fortress in the first turn. There is a downside to it, you are kinda stuck in cat territory for awhile, and it slows down your progress a tad, but nothing you cannot overcome.

It's a pretty broken strategy, with the only real countermeasure being that nobody is going to want to play with you (boardgame or digital) when you do stuff like that.