Class balance 1.34 comments

[djbreakers]

Here's how I rank the classes:

Top-tier: Necromancer, Enchanter, Warrior, Archer
Mid-tier: Storm Mage, Ice Mage, Barbarian
Bottom-tier: Fire Mage, Duelist, Rogue

Having worked on classes for an RPG, rogue fable is amazing all around, and all the many class updates/changes, all really thoughtful and workable...superb game.

Top-tier feels like you can win using mostly that class play style and skills. Other skills add nice flavor but are often entirely optional. IMO they should all be like this, but then, mid-tier is still a balanced challenge.

1. Necromancer was straightforward to play from start to finish as a necro. Life tap, summon skeleton, poison cloud, is the best trinity in the game IMO.

2. Enchanter has a weak start, but strong finish. Might be mid-tier, I think my win got me dominate, and TBH, any caster with dominate is an easy win. That big confusion can just win though..some luck involved.

3. Warrior played like a warrior from start to finish. Mix of durability, damage, lots of gear synergy, and a bit of AOE. No innate gap close.

4. Archer is fun, such a long range. Storm shot is the backbone. Tunnel/power shot are great. Athletics gets you in/out. Solid playstyle.

For gear-junkies, I think warrior rand archer are the most fun. That big composite bow or crossbow, or a warrior saturated with armor/reflect/better weapon warrior...its fun.


Mid-tier: may be able to win with mostly class skills, but more difficult and may rely more on other skills, wands, gear, etc. than top-tier.


5. Storm mage: I recall relying on high MP + Shock, which carried the day. Second best AOE damage behind poison cloud. Felt kind of one-trick though. Might be weakest of top-tier, or strongest of mid-tier, hard to tell.

6. Ice mage damage feels so slow, its tedious to play IMO, lots of early kiting, and long fights. Slow, knockback, low damage..ugh. I usually need to get either a good DPS or summon (or both) to have a good playthrough.

7. Barbarian is good if you get good gear/skill picks, and play it smart. But he's much harder to play than the warrior, dies a lot more, his playstyle is innately risky (charge). Almost low-tier.

Low-tier:
In my playing, these relied on basically adopting skills from other classes or over-reliance on wand/dominate, gear, etc.

7. Fire mage - mages are all good in this game because they can cross-class so easily (all int/mana based, unlike others who might be dex OR str based). Easy early game with fireball, but I found later game to be weak, relying on getting other class spells like necromancer skills or good dominate allies, etc. So much water reduces it, the core reduces it, so many vines/grass are hazards...toughest mage to play IMO.

8. Duelist: Finally won on this, but basically relied on zerker skills added to him, split str/dex , and relied on some good dominates and wands. Good early game, weak after 4+ IMO. Unique class and feel though, just needs some tweaks IMO.

9. Rogue: Still haven't won on rogue, I may get better one day with it. Slow playstyle, sleep attack, sleep attack.

Obviously this is my opinion based on a few weeks of playing all classes. Wins on all but rogue.

Certain gates in the game really demonstrate class differences. Blink frogs can ruin some, and are almost trivial to others. Those sword summoning mages in the desert can be the end of many characters, while others don't even remember them they were so easy. Accidentally running into a big room with a tough unique + mobs, some classes just blast through it..some kite for 10 minutes :)

With all rogue-like games, a lot does come down to drops and luck and maps, etc., but if you play a ton of games I think you'll still see class power levels are significant.

[Nik]

Well I like that tier list format so lemme do it too. The list will only take base abilities into account since anyone can get Summon Skeleton, that doesn't make the character's starting potential any better.

A tier (So easy it's kinda boring)
1. Necromancer- He's not only easy to play, he is BRAINDEADLY easy to play. Good early game dmg, good ability to kite. Rushing Summon Skeleton and pumping everything into mana is the way to go. Late game consists of you running around with 12 overpowered skeletons. If skeletons die you can just keep slamming them out thanks to Cannibalize. Has to grab Poison Cloud for enemies outside of melee range. Can and should prioritize STR over DEX for extra HP.
2. Ranger- In those VeRy HaRd RoGuElIkEs range is king and this bad boy excells in ranged fights. Can't die if enemies can't even damage you. Has natural stealth-ability since you can Power Shot enemies from far away. Storm Shot can clear entire rooms. Has some counters (reflective foes, charm) but honestly, they don't work anyway. DEX provides both damage and survivability (MvP)
3. Enchanter- Probably the weakest in top-tier simply because his early game sucks ass. You can't deal decent damage by yourself until you get Discord and you don't always have a group of foes to confuse. Once you get Discord and Spectral Orb, the class really opens up. Basically Confuse wrecks groups of enemies and Spectral Orb wrecks in 1v1. Can branch out into both STR or DEX since you don't exactly need magic power.

B tier (This is the actual good, balanced tier)
4. Storm Mage- Would be A tier if not for his potential to get one-shotted. You have to go into INT for magic power and MP to spam opponents with spells since staff's damage is laughable compared to the power of Storm Mage's abilities. This means you can't get HP from STR or MvP from DEX. Branching out to get more survivability ruins you ability to deal with enemies fast which ironically lowers your survivability. Shock is your main damage source, it can deal with both single and groups of monsters. This bad boy also comes with the best mana restore skill in the game.
5. Duelist- A better rogue than Rogue. Early game is stupidly easy thanks to smol Rapier and Disengage. He benefits from being split into STR and DEX. STR for dmg/hp, DEX for MvP and extra damage multipliers from abilities. While he has no Sleep Bomb, Duelist makes up for it with Lunge and Disengage. Lunge extends your range which means you can get a jump on unalerted foes. This ♥♥♥♥♥♥ is also better in group fights than Rogue. While he doesn't have any AoE abilities, he can combo Lunge and Disengage to kill one enemy in a group quickly and the use MvPs to get the ♥♥♥♥ out. Heavily countered by slow and charm.

C tier (Playing these causes actual physical pain and mindnumbing frustration)
6. Warrior- He's a better barbarian than Barbarian, this doesn't mean much however. In a game where enemies swarm and kill you in few turns, facetanking damage simply doesn't work. Still, he is the guy with the highest survivability in the game. Posseses a great "oh ♥♥♥♥" heal skill and doesn't need to sacrafice melee damage for his tankiness. Sounds great but in later stages of the game you are forced into fighting with large groups of enemies too often. You can't kite well, you can't deal decent damage at range, your only hope is using corridors to force 1v1 and hoping you can outlast your opponents. However, you don't always have a corridor close to you and if you get charmed, slowed, constricted, pulled, outdamaged or are dealing with too many ranges foes, you are ♥♥♥♥♥♥. You don't have MvPs to run away and you die.
7. Fire mage- his abilities suck ass, the best damage option he has is probably his starting fireball. Flame Bolt is okay but has a pitiful area of effect for the damage it provides. Fire Storm forces you into almost melee combat which is lethal for a MAGE. His defensive and mana restore abilities are also the worst of all mages. This dude's only hope is branching out into some other magic element or even into a STR/DEX build.
8. Ice Mage- a tedious ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. While Fire Mage at least has decent damage from Fire Bolt, this sucker can't kill anything to save his life. Ice guy's ability kit consists of slowing abilities with pitiful damage output and big area of effect. It sucks ass early game because you can't even outdamage minibosses' healing and it sucks late game because you can't outdamage the HORDES of enemies coming your way. Ice Mage's only hope is also branching out and using his abilities more as a neat little bonus.
9. Barbarian- worse Warrior, need I say more? He is literally just the Warrior but with more damage and less survivability.
10. Rogue- honestly, probably the biggest disappointment in the game. Has ♥♥♥♥ damage due to ability requirements strong-arming the player into DEX and not having Weapon Mastery to compensate. He also doesn't have any abilities that would add a damage multiplier to his melee weapons, unlike the Duelist. His stealth gameplay sucks ass due to enemies' natural, very high awareness at close range, has to compensate with Sleep Bomb. He has no way to deal with groups of foes since sleeping monsters become alerted by their friends anyway. His only hope is branching into a Rogue-Warrior or Rogue-Ranger hybrid. Might I add that Rogue is the only class that gets penalized (indirectly) for upgrading his startng ability.

[Scar]

Sleeping bomb AoE works the same as confusion. About sleeping enemies: If they are in a deep sleep (the duration of the sleep bomb effect) they are not woken up by allies.

I am currently in the middle of an all classes all races play through. When it is done and uploaded to youtube I will give my power ranking, though I don't think it will apply to many people. All I will say for now is that there is a tier far, far, above A Tier called God tier, and it is occupied by the ranger.

[djbreakers]

Nice to see similar remarks for the classes.

Most classes have a unique feel and playstyle (elemental mages sort of duplicate but how could that be otherwise), I think it's just some tweaking at this point. A few skills here and there. Such nice diversity and with stats and gear and skills, kudos to Justin.

I love the archer class but played it without storm shot the first 20 games or so. Won without it, felt balanced. But yeah, once (silly) I realized it was not in fact a 300 cooldown skills, and was usable often, and I tried it...wow. Just be careful of reflect I suppose.

But honestly, are end game classes at level 14-16 fully geared supposed to be able to fight VoY groups? If so, then top-tier works fine. Some classes I feel have to kite, potion, scroll, summon, wand, and STILL struggle and have to hope and pray to quickly find the goblet. I like being able to fight through VoY, I do not think it's great to have it so rely on lucky and goblet placement to get "lucky" and sneak through or dash through to a win. If I've gotten to 14-16 levels with full gear, I'd like to fight as I have on all other levels, to victory. Personally.

[djbreakers]

Originally posted by Scar:

All I will say for now is that there is a tier far, far, above A Tier called God tier, and it is occupied by the ranger.

I avoided storm shot for 20 playthroughs or so, won without it. Was not "easy", but I do enjoy that ranged bow attacking. Big groups were still a challenge without solid AOe. tunnel shot was conditional and on cooldown. It felt pretty balanced, but VoY was hard.

When I realized storm shot was not a 300 cooldown, and I used it...yeah, i can see where god-tier comes into play. Kind of walk up to anything and storm shot, done. Groups, high level...doesn't matter if you've got a good bow/ranged damage. I think a bigger cooldown would solve that.

[Nik]

Originally posted by djbreakers:

Nice to see similar remarks for the classes.
Most classes have a unique feel and playstyle (elemental mages sort of duplicate but how could that be otherwise), I think it's just some tweaking at this point. A few skills here and there. Such nice diversity and with stats and gear and skills, kudos to Justin.

Honestly, I think that melee and range damage should be independent from STR/DEX/INT in some way.

Edit: or make DEX improve critical damage

[Scar]

Maybe not god tier, but still S+ tier without storm shot. Ranger only needs dex to get damage, talents and MvP. The flat damage change, along with the abundance of damage, has made ranged weapons way too powerful relative to the melee counterparts. Add in how well the ranger can abuse MvP... Ranger is in a tier of its own.

[Joe Montana]

my hate list is overtaking the love list in this one... i hate current encumbrance, i hate no transference tables, i hate the insanely high HP that makes one shot characters next to impossible anymore (duelist), i hate the low MP regen and all around nerfing of some casters, while necro and enchanter are still stupid easy, and i hate, i hate, i HATE, tripping firepots (AND ONCE MORE I SCREAM TO THE WIND: FIX THE ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ FIREPOTS!)

that said, i love the new content, and i'm still stupidly addicted to this dumb game. tighten up the classes. duelist is ridiculous...requiring dex to unlock skills that take Str to enhance??? that deserves a go F yourself right there.

[Scar]

The current MP regen is about normal, it was only recently where there was ridiculously high MP regen. 1 mp per 1-2 turns is just silly. 1 per 5 is far more reasonable. You get enough regen that you don't need to rest for MP, as long as you don't waste it.

Fire pots/transferance tables are not related to class balance. Encumbrance perhaps could be, but you would need to be more specific. What class can't use what items etc and why should they be able to?

I actually like duelist now that he isn't god tier. (Duelist was the previous god tier class in old patches, lunge was so broken). A good balance of dex and str and he works well. Adding some crit dmg back to dex would be nice, but not as much as there was before would be good.

[Nik]

Originally posted by Joe Montana:

my hate list is overtaking the love list in this one... i hate current encumbrance, i hate no transference tables, i hate the insanely high HP that makes one shot characters next to impossible anymore (duelist), i hate the low MP regen and all around nerfing of some casters, while necro and enchanter are still stupid easy, and i hate, i hate, i HATE, tripping firepots (AND ONCE MORE I SCREAM TO THE WIND: FIX THE ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ FIREPOTS!)

that said, i love the new content, and i'm still stupidly addicted to this dumb game. tighten up the classes. duelist is ridiculous...requiring dex to unlock skills that take Str to enhance??? that deserves a go F yourself right there.

Yeah, holy ♥♥♥♥ this game is addicting and it's been something that I've never knew I needed.

I'd say that encumberance is a step in the right direction but maybe we should get something more like STR/DEX/INT requirements to wear a piece of armor. I'm the most pissed about how bad Rogue is, given how much I like anything stealth related in any game. Also if I remember correctly there used to be an evasion stat back in free version, why is it gone?

[ysayell]

I dunno, I've not had any real issue with rogues(deep sleep is solid early AoE control and you can block line of sight) and duelists are pretty amazing since the game difficulty declines as it goes along and duelists are spectacular early. Plus anything dex is AMAZING with range being so powerful. You can clear entire floors with Bear Trap, if you're patient. Melee foes weep. Only really weak fellow, to my consideration, is fire mage. They're flimsy, the damage the deal is unspectacular and often countered by environment (grass burns you up, water cuts damage) or by enemies (fire resistant Yendor dogs are a huge danger to mages already, if you hit directly the fireballs reflect). The fire cloud skill is good, but short lasting, and the fire pulse thing is kinda crappy. Damage shield is, at best, unspectacular.

Archer and Necromancer are best, Ice and Fire are weakest with Fire truly sucking (still very winnable, but... ick) and a note that if you're unlucky, you can get butchered in the first couple floors with Enchanter. Confusion is easily one of the best skills out there, but man do they suck when they've got low mana and no damage skill and the enemies corner you/move fast.