The EULA: Mods and Privacy

[Demonianism]

EULA: take2games.com/eula
Privacy: take2games.com/privacy

So. Let's talk about this...thing.

I figure first we can hit the privacy issue, as it is a little more straightforward:

Originally posted by "Information Collection & Usage":

By installing and using the Software, you consent to the information collection and usage terms set forth in this section and Licensor's Privacy Policy, including (where applicable) (i) the transfer of any personal information and other information to Licensor, its affiliates, vendors, and business partners, and to certain other third parties, such as governmental authorities, in the U.S. and other countries located outside Europe or your home country, including countries that may have lower standards of privacy protection; (ii) the public display of your data, such as identification of your user-created content or displaying your scores, ranking, achievements, and other gameplay data on websites and other platforms; (iii) the sharing of your gameplay data with hardware manufacturers, platform hosts, and Licensor's marketing partners; and (iv) other uses and disclosures of your personal information or other information as specified in the above-referenced Privacy Policy, as amended from time to time. If you do not want your information used or shared in this manner, then you should not use the Software.

For the purposes all data privacy issues, including the collection, use, disclosure, and transfer of your personal information and other information, the Privacy Policy located at www.take2games.com/privacy, as amended from time to time, takes precedence over any other statement in this Agreement.

It's pretty blunt. Especially at the end with that first paragraph. They reserve the right to take all of your data and do whatever they want with it. It's pretty gross. In honesty, this one section is enough to make me reconsider the game. It's not like I can go back to KSP1, the EULA is the same there apparently. I'm not entirely sure what to do about it, either.

To all of you who start talking about refunding and how we're part of the problem, there is a saying out there about cutting off your own nose to spite your face. This issue isn't just with Take2, but with the entire industry. It's just more obvious and up front here.

Anyways, I figured that I'd put that out there for people to consume.

Onto the Mods.

---

I don't think that it's exaggeration to say that mods made KSP1. So how does the EULA treat them?

Originally posted by "License Conditions":

USER CREATED CONTENT: The Software may allow you to create content, including, but not limited to, a gameplay map, scenario, screenshot, car design, character, item, or video of your game play. In exchange for use of the Software, and to the extent that your contributions through use of the Software give rise to any copyright interest, you hereby grant Licensor an exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, fully transferable, and sub-licensable worldwide right and license to use your contributions in any way and for any purpose in connection with the Software and related goods and services, including, but not limited to, the rights to reproduce, copy, adapt, modify, perform, display, publish, broadcast, transmit, or otherwise communicate to the public by any means whether now known or unknown and distribute your contributions without any further notice or compensation to you of any kind for the whole duration of protection granted to intellectual property rights by applicable laws and international conventions. You hereby waive and agree never to assert any moral rights of paternity, publication, reputation, or attribution with respect to Licensor's and other players' use and enjoyment of such assets in connection with the Software and related goods and services under applicable law. This license grant to Licensor, and terms above regarding any applicable moral rights, will survive any termination of this Agreement.

Again. Pretty blunt. God help you if you want to make a game or art piece some day but that idea was germinated as a KSP mod. I don't think it's deniable that this section will destroy the modding community. The people who make mods are passionate and artistic; making mods for free on their own time. What this section says is that Take2 owns that work in perpetuity.

It's one thing to say that you can't make money off a mod, I don't think that's unreasonable. Saying that you can't then take that idea and run with it is something else entirely.

There are ways to deal with user content and this is not one of them. Minecraft, the best selling game of all time with 238 million copies sold lives, breaths, and dies on mods. In fact, the Bedrock version of the game allows for monetization of user content (I haven't played in years, so I might be a bit behind). There are other examples to be sure, but Minecraft would not be worth what it is today without the vibrant community making content for themselves.

Unfortunately I don't see a terribly bright future in user content for KSP2 unless this changes.

In my review I brought up the WC3/DOTA issue. What I didn't mention is what Blizzard should have done: congratulate the makers of DOTA and say to the world that because of Blizzard's policies of user generated content an entire new popular game was born. Blizzard could have used DOTA launching it's own game as a marketing point. But they didn't. They changed the EULA for the remaster and the old game to make impossible for new creators to find passion on their platform. Because of this policy change the custom map option in the new WC3 is dead.

I fear that the user content for KSP2 will never reach orbit, much less leave the solar system, as it did in KSP1.

As a final note, I would like to say that the forum software on Steam blows. Formatting this stuff was a serious blast from the past in annoying ways.

[Depaskala]

Ah you forgot the bit about planned in-game currency.

[Zerotheliger]

oh my god this again? this was settled like 4 years ago and people were over reacting when this was on ksp1 and nothing happened.

[....]

To be honest i'm pretty sure that a lot of those terms would never hold up in any court. Gamers seriously need their own lobby or else companys will just do whatever they want.

I like how they pretty much give themselves the right to use content created by users and publish that while saying that they give away all their rights especially for compensation etc.

I also dont understand the point of modern privacy terms - especially if most of them could be summed up in one sentence "we dont care about your privacy and want to do with your data whatever profits us".

[....]

Originally posted by Zerotheliger:

oh my god this again? this was settled like 4 years ago and people were over reacting when this was on ksp1 and nothing happened.

No that actually was important - if i remember correctly it was about the option to opt out of data collection.


To be honest i dont understand why people dont value their privacy and at least see the value of their own data. Some sites now have opt out options and its insane if you look into it - sometimes a single website shares and sells your data to hundreds of other companies if you dont opt out.

I honestly think this is a slap in the face to consumers - i mean we pay full price for a product yet have to agree to give up our privacy and give them the ability to even sell that data for more profit?

[Ragnaman]

Originally posted by Zerotheliger:

oh my god this again? this was settled like 4 years ago and people were over reacting when this was on ksp1 and nothing happened.

under reacting tbh

[Demonianism]

Originally posted by Depaskala:

Ah you forgot the bit about planned in-game currency.

I didn't forget about it, I didn't think it terribly topical. Sure there's the in game currency stuff in the EULA, I haven't seen the plans to implement it, but most games have realized that sort of thing should stick to useless eye candy and shouldn't impact the game much.

That's not to say I would be happy with micro-transactions...I wouldn't not, but they don't concern me over much.

Originally posted by Zerotheliger:

oh my god this again? this was settled like 4 years ago and people were over reacting when this was on ksp1 and nothing happened.

I argue that this is not an over reaction. They put that in the EULA. Sure, they might not actually plan on doing anything like that; except that it's there and they can. What if they sell or a new CEO comes in? These things happen. I would also point out that I don't think we've had any hugely successful games developed on the back of mods that were developed for KSP1 that would attract the sharks.

What I'm pointing out here is that these things are present in the EULA, they can be used, and they are not friendly things to put there.

[Nimir-Raj]

EULAs generally aren't upheld in Europe anyway, so ignore it and do what ya want just like we do for every other game.

[Zerotheliger]

Originally posted by Demonianism:

Originally posted by Depaskala:

Ah you forgot the bit about planned in-game currency.

I didn't forget about it, I didn't think it terribly topical. Sure there's the in game currency stuff in the EULA, I haven't seen the plans to implement it, but most games have realized that sort of thing should stick to useless eye candy and shouldn't impact the game much.

That's not to say I would be happy with micro-transactions...I wouldn't not, but they don't concern me over much.

Originally posted by Zerotheliger:

oh my god this again? this was settled like 4 years ago and people were over reacting when this was on ksp1 and nothing happened.

I argue that this is not an over reaction. They put that in the EULA. Sure, they might not actually plan on doing anything like that; except that it's there and they can. What if they sell or a new CEO comes in? These things happen. I would also point out that I don't think we've had any hugely successful games developed on the back of mods that were developed for KSP1 that would attract the sharks.

What I'm pointing out here is that these things are present in the EULA, they can be used, and they are not friendly things to put there.

dont mod for elderscrolls games, or minecraft, or fallout they all have similar eulas.

[Ragnaman]

Originally posted by Nimir-Raj:

EULAs generally aren't upheld in Europe anyway, so ignore it and do what ya want just like we do for every other game.

until the moment you become successful and get a cease and desist.
GTA Online ? Remember ?

[Demonianism]

Originally posted by ....:

To be honest i'm pretty sure that a lot of those terms would never hold up in any court.

First, this would never see a court. You get an arbitration, not a judge and jury. Second, even if you got a judge, they would hold this up. Every day terrible contracts are upheld because both parties agreed to the terms, and this EULA is a contract that you must accept to play the game.

[SquaredSpekz]

So with a EULA like that, VTOL VR wouldn't exist, having it's roots be in BDArmory.

[....]

Originally posted by Nimir-Raj:

EULAs generally aren't upheld in Europe anyway, so ignore it and do what ya want just like we do for every other game.

The problem is - they are upheld in an effective way.

There are lots of companies that have EULAs etc. with terms that would probably not hold up in court - but in reality that doesnt matter since nobody will sue due to the small ammount of money involved for each indidivudal - and even if you tried to sue with your insurance chances are they will just compensate you since its probably way more cost efficient to that instead of hiring a lawyer that costs more in 10 minutes than the ammoutn of money the lawsuit would be about.

Originally posted by Demonianism:

Originally posted by ....:

To be honest i'm pretty sure that a lot of those terms would never hold up in any court.

First, this would never see a court. You get an arbitration, not a judge and jury. Second, even if you got a judge, they would hold this up. Every day terrible contracts are upheld because both parties agreed to the terms, and this EULA is a contract that you must accept to play the game.

I dont think so - in general probably yes - but this always involves cosnumer rights.
To be honest in general its questionable if EULAs are ever agreed upon - since as far as i remember you would have to agree before pruchase - so games showing you the eula after purchase probably have a problem.

Also i read a lot of EULAs with terms that gave the creator of the EULA the right to change the EULA in any way they want - thats pretty much a classical example of a term that doesnt work.

[HashSlingingSlasher]

Your talking the steam forums, your personal data isn't their concern. I don't know why these topics come up no one cares about your data. I don't know why every one thinks they are important but your not so stop worrying about your data

[Ritsuka]

Originally posted by Demonianism:

EULA: take2games.com/eula
Privacy: take2games.com/privacy

So. Let's talk about this...thing.

I figure first we can hit the privacy issue, as it is a little more straightforward:

Originally posted by "Information Collection & Usage":

By installing and using the Software, you consent to the information collection and usage terms set forth in this section and Licensor's Privacy Policy, including (where applicable) (i) the transfer of any personal information and other information to Licensor, its affiliates, vendors, and business partners, and to certain other third parties, such as governmental authorities, in the U.S. and other countries located outside Europe or your home country, including countries that may have lower standards of privacy protection; (ii) the public display of your data, such as identification of your user-created content or displaying your scores, ranking, achievements, and other gameplay data on websites and other platforms; (iii) the sharing of your gameplay data with hardware manufacturers, platform hosts, and Licensor's marketing partners; and (iv) other uses and disclosures of your personal information or other information as specified in the above-referenced Privacy Policy, as amended from time to time. If you do not want your information used or shared in this manner, then you should not use the Software.

For the purposes all data privacy issues, including the collection, use, disclosure, and transfer of your personal information and other information, the Privacy Policy located at www.take2games.com/privacy, as amended from time to time, takes precedence over any other statement in this Agreement.

It's pretty blunt. Especially at the end with that first paragraph. They reserve the right to take all of your data and do whatever they want with it. It's pretty gross. In honesty, this one section is enough to make me reconsider the game. It's not like I can go back to KSP1, the EULA is the same there apparently. I'm not entirely sure what to do about it, either.

To all of you who start talking about refunding and how we're part of the problem, there is a saying out there about cutting off your own nose to spite your face. This issue isn't just with Take2, but with the entire industry. It's just more obvious and up front here.

Anyways, I figured that I'd put that out there for people to consume.

Onto the Mods.

---

I don't think that it's exaggeration to say that mods made KSP1. So how does the EULA treat them?

Originally posted by "License Conditions":

USER CREATED CONTENT: The Software may allow you to create content, including, but not limited to, a gameplay map, scenario, screenshot, car design, character, item, or video of your game play. In exchange for use of the Software, and to the extent that your contributions through use of the Software give rise to any copyright interest, you hereby grant Licensor an exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, fully transferable, and sub-licensable worldwide right and license to use your contributions in any way and for any purpose in connection with the Software and related goods and services, including, but not limited to, the rights to reproduce, copy, adapt, modify, perform, display, publish, broadcast, transmit, or otherwise communicate to the public by any means whether now known or unknown and distribute your contributions without any further notice or compensation to you of any kind for the whole duration of protection granted to intellectual property rights by applicable laws and international conventions. You hereby waive and agree never to assert any moral rights of paternity, publication, reputation, or attribution with respect to Licensor's and other players' use and enjoyment of such assets in connection with the Software and related goods and services under applicable law. This license grant to Licensor, and terms above regarding any applicable moral rights, will survive any termination of this Agreement.

Again. Pretty blunt. God help you if you want to make a game or art piece some day but that idea was germinated as a KSP mod. I don't think it's deniable that this section will destroy the modding community. The people who make mods are passionate and artistic; making mods for free on their own time. What this section says is that Take2 owns that work in perpetuity.

It's one thing to say that you can't make money off a mod, I don't think that's unreasonable. Saying that you can't then take that idea and run with it is something else entirely.

There are ways to deal with user content and this is not one of them. Minecraft, the best selling game of all time with 238 million copies sold lives, breaths, and dies on mods. In fact, the Bedrock version of the game allows for monetization of user content (I haven't played in years, so I might be a bit behind). There are other examples to be sure, but Minecraft would not be worth what it is today without the vibrant community making content for themselves.

Unfortunately I don't see a terribly bright future in user content for KSP2 unless this changes.

In my review I brought up the WC3/DOTA issue. What I didn't mention is what Blizzard should have done: congratulate the makers of DOTA and say to the world that because of Blizzard's policies of user generated content an entire new popular game was born. Blizzard could have used DOTA launching it's own game as a marketing point. But they didn't. They changed the EULA for the remaster and the old game to make impossible for new creators to find passion on their platform. Because of this policy change the custom map option in the new WC3 is dead.

I fear that the user content for KSP2 will never reach orbit, much less leave the solar system, as it did in KSP1.

As a final note, I would like to say that the forum software on Steam blows. Formatting this stuff was a serious blast from the past in annoying ways.

this is with all games that have mods. YOU do not own the rights to the mods you make, the publishers,in this case take 2 does, which gives them legal authority to take your mods and use them as they see fit. does it suck yes, is it wrong yes. is it illegal. no as per copyright law

[....]

Originally posted by HashSlingingSlasher:

Your talking the steam forums, your personal data isn't their concern. I don't know why these topics come up no one cares about your data. I don't know why every one thinks they are important but your not so stop worrying about your data

Its people like you that are clueless. Its pretty obvious that personal data is one of the big new markets. Seriously if you look at some random website and the cookikes etc. - have you never wondered - from your point of view - why they are giving away your data to hundreds of other companies (on ever single site) etc. if your data is worth nothing?

This isnt only interresting to companies but also to political parties etc. for elections campaigns etc. - probably also interresting for your future employer, your insurance etc.

If i remember correctly things like the local google searches for example can even be used to find outbreaks of infecitons etc. Have you ever wondered how google can show traffic jams to you - or how it can tell you if a shop is overcrowded at certain times?