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Also avoiding SteamVR you're missing the cutting edge of VR gaming, things like Boneworks, Alyx and the already mentioned VTOL VR I used as an example. Now, on that screenshot:
I don't know how it works for Oculus Store games, but most of SteamVR games come with a spectator view on the normal monitor, that's where the screenshot comes from.
Now, luckily I have uploaded some screenshot I personally made in VTOLVR using the SteamVR capture feature, that, if I'm not wrong, uses the headset image of the left eye instead of the monitor one:
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/772863279195493132/4B55F0B71CF74A7243BA9368B8E91C2A853F3912/
On my profile you can find other screenshots of the same game and here's the link to the game Steam page:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/667970/VTOL_VR/
there is a difference in what you see when the screen is 2" from your face dude!
lol..I dont know if you noticed or not that the screenshot you linked there and the screenshot you linked before is graphically really very very different when it comes to clarity.
however it appears that orginal screenshot post you had either been removed or tagged as being possible 'malicious'. (I went back in this thread to find it)
anyway..the main issue with throwing around the resolution card when it comes to numbers, is how close you are to the screen actually does matter. put your fact 2" from your monitor right now and tell me it looks the same.
also..in VROL VR are you making the position that you have just as many options in flght as you would building a kerbal rocket or setting up a kerbal orbit?
or is it more like Elite Dangerous when it comes to number of options in real time?
Nope it's still there, what you're seeing it's just the normal alert steam gives you when you're redirected to another site like Imgur.
I don't think you know how the Fresnel lens of a VR headset works, I'll simplify that for you:
More resolution = less "pixelated" effect.
It's not difficult I think that with some effort even you can understand that.
In VTOL VR you fly and manage more data (complex weapon systems) than you ever do in Kerbal and you do it in a time sentive environment opposed to the slow orbits that you'll find in KSP.
1. fair enough, that makes sense and it was something as a possiblity I was going to mention, and as such I can tell the difference as I have stated. Even in a screenshot (which is not like being 2" from the VR screen) you can see pixelation. where as the one taken from the monitor (and yes I know what you mean) is flat. Now in Oculus the image would be rounded if I recall correctly but fair enough.
2. (first screenshot)I am almost postive it did not have that warning when I first saw it, but maybe the warning comes later after the automated system picks it up, regardless, you have made your point regarding the difference so that is fair enough.
3. (resolution myth)yes...more resolution means less pixaliation. however being closer to the screen means more pixalation that you NOTICE. thus, given how close your are to the screen the resolution and the PPI has to be considerably better then a flat monitor in order to not notice pixaliation. easy way to test this is to take a look at your current monitors text, from 2" away
4. I see, so do you think Elite Dangerous has around about the same amount of controls you need to deal with as VROL VR during combat within say a factor of 10x?
Because my impression of playing Elite Dangerous as fantastic as it is (despite its map system which everyone but you seems to not like) is no where near the level of user interactive depth that building a rocket in Kerbal and getting 6+ communication sattalites in perfect orbit is.
disagree? I would say factoring in information needes, high level of accuracy needed, time, calculations etc. that the UI demand in kerbal is likely about 20x that of Elite Dangerous. I think suggesting that kerbal build and operations demands is similar to that of a high end flight simulator in regards to information, accuracy etc is absurd.
(Maybe consider this example, do a complex spaggetti staging build in Kerbal, compare all that info, control requirements, time invested etc to Elite Dangerous combat) I think you should be able to see my concerned if you give that some honest thought
I'm starting to think that what you're describing is not the pixellation but the screendoor effect, the fact that you see can see the empty space between the subpixel (just google screen door effect VR), I can say that with modern headsets that problem is practically gone, I can still notice it if I really make an effort to but it's not a distracting noticeable thing like it was on first gen headsrts.
In Elite is way simpler in everything, the complexity is mostly in outfitting and engineering the ship, in VTOL you need to actually know what weapons you have on which hardpoint and how many of them you have left and every single weapon has a different targeting system and specific way of firing it.
But that's not the reason I'm using it as an example, VTOL VR doen't support HOTASes, you play the entirety of the game by using your hands to push buttons, flip switches and you control the plane with a virtual HOTAS you grab with your VR hand.
Every plane in the game also has multiple MFDs (Multi-Function Displays) that can show as many pages of infos as you need.
This for example is a tutorial to use the ARAD missiles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7cpmb80q1M
Given what you can do in VTOL accurate orbits are a joke, the burn execution doesn't change the maneuver node is just as usable by hand as it is with a mouse and a "precise" mode can be added just by putting a virtual numpad in the scene (VTOL MFDs have 16 buttons each, a numpad in the cockpit is a joke to add if needed).
Staging? While playing it's a single button, while building it's drag and drop, easy.
Also VTOL is a great example because it is a one-man project, a guy (Bahamuto from KSP mod BDArmory) decided he wanted a more VR friendly combat sim and just made one.
1. yes screendoor effect which I thought was the same thing as pixelation but yes. If you put your face closer to your monitor text will be harder to read even if the size is adjusted. Text visiablity (as you should know) is not as easy to read while being in VR as the screenshots of VR suggest. Yes you can read it, but its not a clear and crisp as it is on a monitor and clear crisp text means one can read fast and get on with the goal at hand, so a goal that requires a lot of reading and calculation this is helpful. like figuring out Deta V manually for example
2. Ok let me ask the same question better so you can focus more clearly.
are you suggesting that VTOL has the same level of player interaction of details (hands or otherwise) as what is required to do spaghetti staging in a kerbal build for hours and/or setting up 6+ sattailies in perfect orbits for a communication network?
I was concerned that if I used Elite Dangerous to ask my question that the answer to drift into the wrong direction which clearly it has so forget Elite for this question please.
In summary
I do see myself playing Elite for hours straight and I have done that.
I do see myself playing VTOL for hours straight perhaps
I do not see myself building a rocket in Kerbal for hours straight in VR. but to be fair, maybe if the rocket building process what more the core game. like for example Stationeers, where 90% of your time is building a rocket, yeah that might translate. but I see it being more time consuming in VR as a bottom line
I think VR is awesome for some specific types of games (in fact maybe even most games) but not games like Kerbal and seveal others but I dont want to get my point lost
also..regarding pagging. here is the thing, you can page all of KSP info, even the most in depth screenshot i can find, all into one panel. but it does not make for a good user experience to have to Tab page, or standard page all over the place to get your information when you have a info centric game
also..actually to be fair how you described VTOL control system, I dont think I would play that game comfortably
Then good, screendoor is almost completely gone, turns out that using low resolution pentile oled screens wasn't a good idea, that's why the Rift S and the Index choose to go back to LCDs with 3 subpixel per pixel instead of 2.
Also clarity increased drammatically with newer headsets.
Yes.
You've seen the video of the weapon tutorial? The interaction with the plane cockpit is natural (And feels so when you're actually in the game in VR).
Adapt the maneuver node to be somethign using buttons and knobs and you can do it in VR just fine, but using it with the hands just like you do with the mouse is just as natural.
Staging? Configuration is just drag and drop, as easy in VR as it is with a mouse.
Actually building complex structures is even easier, a mouse it's only 2 axes with which you have to control 6 for the position and rotation of the camera (the view) and 6 for the rotation and position of the part you're working on.
In VR you don't need camera controls (that's your head) and you move the parts with your hands and you still have the controller's 2 thumbsticks and analog triggers unused, that's 6 additional axes.
And, after you launch, staging is only a question of 1 button press.
You don't have to play the full game in VR for VR support to be relevant
I would love to build every craft in VR, but I would probably fly only a some of them in VR, maybe the first landing on a new world or when i fly a plane, but surely not the 20 identical launches to bring a satellite network to orbit.
And surely I would do all the colonial planning in pankake mode
KSP is a bit of a building game, a bit of a managing game and a bit of a flight sim.
I get that managing colonies, mining, cargo routes (KSP2 features) does not play for VR strongest points, but simming and 3D building is what VR is being used for professionally.
I get the fatigue part, but that varies from person to person, I've done 6 to 8 hours of VR sessions, but that's not an everyday occurrence, as I said I would not use KSP in VR 100% of the time, probably even less than 50%, but it would still be worth it to have VR support (and still I would build only in VR).
1. ok fine, I would have to experience it to believe that its so good now that you can have lots of small text and read it as flawlessly as a monitor.
2. so basically you are making the claim that VTOL as far as amount of interactive requirements from the player is more then doing spaghetti staging in kerbal build but with the addition issue of quick time becuase of combat. sorry but I think that sounds like bull sh...your going to do all the things that require the most of your attention and interaction that kerbal has to offer AS WELL AS having a time and visual contraints of immediate concerns AT THE SAME TIME..no friggin way.
3. I have no issue with the idea of making PARTS of kerbal VR and parts of it not. in fact, my orginal point was exactly that. The question being, how do we make the game easy to switch back and forth between what you do in VR and what you do in pancake mode. That has been main underlining concern from the start and it was my first observation as such. In fact, making it fairly easy to switch back and forth would open up a lot of possiblities for a lot of games
2. Pixelation wouldn't be captured on a screencap.
3. Evidently you've never played or seen VR before.
The main difference between Elite and VTOL is that Elite still treats VR as a monitor.
That's the point, you should stop thinking about the scene (flight, map, VAB, hangar) as a screen and start to think about it as a 3D space.
Stop thinking about the 2D UI of KSP but in VR, the flight view could be a cockpit like VTOL VR but it could also be a desk in a mission control room, with a toy model of the craft for the per-part craft interactions (shutting a single engine down or opeining a solar panel), a globe on in a corner of the desk for the map view and 2, 3 but even 12 monitors for all the data you could possibly want.
Actually Elite is doing that for the upcoming Odissey DLC, the FPS portion of the game won't be VR, only pankake, but you'll just switch between the two by... removing the headest.
The game continues on the screen and, if you want, you could even play in a projected screen directly in the headset.
Easy as that.
Tux can't comprehend building in KSP VR, but once again, look at Universe Sandbox or RecRoom, your building menu will be on one of your hands, and you just place it with your hands on the ship, which allows a lot finer adjustments than with a mouse since you can get super close in VR. I imagine it would be a lot more dynamic though, iirc they said the fuel tanks and stuff will be more dynamic rather than specific defined sizes, think procedural parts, which will cut down on the page scrolling by a lot.
its not a conversation about the difference between Elite and VTOL, its a conversation about KERBAL SPACE PROGRAM
so what I am telling you is that the idea that VTOL can have the same level of input demands as building spaggetti staging and setting up communication networks WHILE IN COMBAT...is absurd.
forget about Elite, its not a conversation about the difference between Elite and VTOL..focus.