What is the point of melee?

[Pondera the Radio Angel]

Okay, this is something I'm struggling with, and I need some help here. My question is why on Terra would you ever bother using melee combat in an environment filled with guns and tanks and such? First of all, melee does hardly any damage to vehicles, if they can catch them at all. Secondly, I know about "tying squads up". Congrats, while one squad is dancing around, making your melee chase them, those 3 other squads are shooting the hell out of them. And lastly, melee squads can only have so many units attacking a single target at once whereas ranged attackers can have far far more involved in attacking that same single target.

So, help me out here, internet. Is there a point to using melee at all? Or should I simply deploy ranged squads en masse and shoot down incoming melee attackers? Khorne Berserkers won't be swinging their chain-axes are anything if they're long dead.

[taochaitsung]

Short answer: there is no point to melee. The truth is that even at extreme close quarters firearms still wins out over melee weapons. That's why, based on the conditions Soulstorm and other Dawn of War games set up, the Tau and then- maybe, a tossup between the Imperial Guard or Eldar would completely own every engagement. The space marines, chaos, and especially the Orks would eat ♥♥♥♥ every battle and it wouldn't even be close.

[YbuBaKa]

Цитата допису taochaitsung:

Short answer: there is no point to melee. The truth is that even at extreme close quarters firearms still wins out over melee weapons. That's why, based on the conditions Soulstorm and other Dawn of War games set up, the Tau and then- maybe, a tossup between the Imperial Guard or Eldar would completely own every engagement. The space marines, chaos, and especially the Orks would eat ♥♥♥♥ every battle and it wouldn't even be close.

The question was about the game, not about the lore. And not about "how it would be in real life". There are no Space Marines in real life, to be honest.
So, in the game melee units are effective. But before purchasing a melee squad, question yourself: will it be able to catch it's target? That is why stormboyz are very good and nobz are usually bad. But even nobz can be good if utilized properly: as a meat shields, or against buildings (they can't run away, hahaha!) or against necrons (because their troops are even slower).

[pope johnny paul two]

Цитата допису taochaitsung:

Short answer: there is no point to melee. The truth is that even at extreme close quarters firearms still wins out over melee weapons. That's why, based on the conditions Soulstorm and other Dawn of War games set up, the Tau and then- maybe, a tossup between the Imperial Guard or Eldar would completely own every engagement. The space marines, chaos, and especially the Orks would eat ♥♥♥♥ every battle and it wouldn't even be close.

erm. u just compared a wh40k game to real life? it doesnt work like that, unless u wanted to depict lore image of things, then u are beyond completely wrong.

[Slimurgical (Stormy)]

The reason as to why melee is viable in 40k, is because of a little something I personally like to call the Technological Combat Bellcurve.

As technology increases from 0, melee becomes the only viable and reliable option, with ranged options only being available for those unable to do melee options. But then Armor is invented, and technology shifts to adapt. Different melee weapon variants appear to counter different types of armor.

etc. etc. etc. ranged weapons eventually outpace melee weapons, simply due to armor being too bulky and mostly inefficient in how useful it is.

But once you get access to ridiculous materials and alloys, which happens when you explore space on a grand crusade to conquer all of the galaxy if not universe, making armor so strong that you need hails of gunfire to kill the heavy infantry troops, melee becomes more viable since troops live long enough ot actually use the damn things.

It also helps that most factions with less armor, more have so many in numbers that if a few dozen die just to get ot melee range, nothing is lost and you get to shank a fool.

Ranged is still super strong, but with jetpacks, teleporters and armor so thick that anything beyond a hail of gunfire is something short of irrelevant, melee becomes a lot more possible.

That's not even given the fact that a bunch of the factions could have access to energy shields, like the Eldar, but none of them do, which would make ranged even worse.

TL;DR - Strong armor, jetpacks, super jump abilities and more allows you to deploy melee troops and with a decent effectiveness. Even if the enemy have weaponry equal to 120 caliber weaponry, or so much laser fire that it looks like an ocean of blood coming at you, super armor and movement options make it less effective.

Still TL;DR - Higher levels of technology lets you do alot more dumb crap to fight the enemy and have it be effective.

Melee is viable in basically every single sci-fi where all factions have access to either high-scale factory complexes and/or a high level of technology.

[Gambit_DoW]

There is one more reason for melee (although not all mellee squads implement it).
The Charging.
There is a speed modifier (usually x 1.25 - 1.5), when a unit charges another in melee.
And even fleeing units, will be chased by charging units at x1.25 speed.

To that end, a Assault Terminator Marine squad (movement 12, charge modifier x1.5 -> charging speed of 18), will always best a Tactical one (speed 16), in melee combat.
And while engaged, all squads take ranged damage protection, so any possible nearby ranged squads will not be that efficient against your melee attackers.

Evenmore, squads with the melee_leap Charging (like SMs Grey Knights, or TAU Kroot Carnivores), will engage ranged squads at lightning speed.

CONCLUSION: I think that if you EXCLUSIVELY use melee squads, you will be in advantage, against a formation where only ranged squads are used.

Moreover (this is my strategy), a couple good tank/disruption melee squads ahead are ALWAYS usefully, if supported by ranged squads behind.



This is a very interesting topic by the way.

You know there is a mod called Unification, that now contains the Soulstorm Bugfix mod.
I will discuss it with the team, so that we give MORE charge modifiers to melee-oriented squads.

[Arii]

2x Warp Beast Pack + Wych Squad + Archon = No More Ranged Units
Really, there are several damage types; some melee units tend to be anti-vehicle while others tend to be anti-personnel. You have to learn which one which in order to deal with the target at hand. Tying squads especially Tau units is extremely cruical. Sometimes you even have to charge in melee with your ranged units in order to, let's say, save an important unit, gain time or make the enemy busy.
It would be foolish to attack with one squad of melee to a chunk of ranged units, but if you're in a large battle, making your opponent microing single unit would be frustrating for him and ultimately give you the upper hand.

[Pansophist]

LORE:

Most of your enemies have shields and armor that make using guns impractical, this is especially true for the tau, eldar and the imperium of man (contrary to what the fanboy in this thread says)

Sure you have super powerful ranged weaponry, how does that fare against a tyranid hive fleet rushing at you at 60mph and or dropping right on top of you? Or how about a squad of marines who not only have ranged weapons but armor that can take shot after shot without being hurt. Or god forbid your volley fire comes up against an ork WAAAGHHH and you get bum rushed and you better hope you have a melee weapon.

Yes ranged can still win some of these engagements but very rarely and in the imperial guards case its a pyrhic victory every single time, your bullets will run out quicker than there numbers or armor will.

In game:

Melee isnt as underpowered as you think it is, if you dont believe me play as the tau for awhile

[taochaitsung]

Цитата допису YbuBaKa:

Цитата допису taochaitsung:

Short answer: there is no point to melee. The truth is that even at extreme close quarters firearms still wins out over melee weapons. That's why, based on the conditions Soulstorm and other Dawn of War games set up, the Tau and then- maybe, a tossup between the Imperial Guard or Eldar would completely own every engagement. The space marines, chaos, and especially the Orks would eat ♥♥♥♥ every battle and it wouldn't even be close.

The question was about the game, not about the lore. And not about "how it would be in real life". There are no Space Marines in real life, to be honest.
So, in the game melee units are effective. But before purchasing a melee squad, question yourself: will it be able to catch it's target? That is why stormboyz are very good and nobz are usually bad. But even nobz can be good if utilized properly: as a meat shields, or against buildings (they can't run away, hahaha!) or against necrons (because their troops are even slower).

Even in the game, there's little point. When I run the Tau I have the easiest time, because their approach to warfare makes the most sense and has the best results, barnone.

[taochaitsung]

Цитата допису testing purposes:

Цитата допису taochaitsung:

Short answer: there is no point to melee. The truth is that even at extreme close quarters firearms still wins out over melee weapons. That's why, based on the conditions Soulstorm and other Dawn of War games set up, the Tau and then- maybe, a tossup between the Imperial Guard or Eldar would completely own every engagement. The space marines, chaos, and especially the Orks would eat ♥♥♥♥ every battle and it wouldn't even be close.

erm. u just compared a wh40k game to real life? it doesnt work like that, unless u wanted to depict lore image of things, then u are beyond completely wrong.

What you wish to believe isn't relevant. Even in the lore, Games Workshop authors have to force plots to skirt around how things would've actually played out based either on their PC games or tabletop rules. No, extreme range and high mobility will dominate the battlespace.

[taochaitsung]

Цитата допису Ominouscient:

LORE:

Most of your enemies have shields and armor that make using guns impractical, this is especially true for the tau, eldar and the imperium of man (contrary to what the fanboy in this thread says)

Sure you have super powerful ranged weaponry, how does that fare against a tyranid hive fleet rushing at you at 60mph and or dropping right on top of you? Or how about a squad of marines who not only have ranged weapons but armor that can take shot after shot without being hurt. Or god forbid your volley fire comes up against an ork WAAAGHHH and you get bum rushed and you better hope you have a melee weapon.

Yes ranged can still win some of these engagements but very rarely and in the imperial guards case its a pyrhic victory every single time, your bullets will run out quicker than there numbers or armor will.

In game:

Melee isnt as underpowered as you think it is, if you dont believe me play as the tau for awhile

By the time someone proclaims their shields or armor impenetrable someone else has already worked out a weapon to pierce clean through it. It was true in ancient times, medieval warfare, industrial, and especially post-industrial. The trend isn't reversing in the slightest.

[taochaitsung]

Цитата допису Ominouscient:

LORE:

Most of your enemies have shields and armor that make using guns impractical, this is especially true for the tau, eldar and the imperium of man (contrary to what the fanboy in this thread says)

Sure you have super powerful ranged weaponry, how does that fare against a tyranid hive fleet rushing at you at 60mph and or dropping right on top of you? Or how about a squad of marines who not only have ranged weapons but armor that can take shot after shot without being hurt. Or god forbid your volley fire comes up against an ork WAAAGHHH and you get bum rushed and you better hope you have a melee weapon.

Yes ranged can still win some of these engagements but very rarely and in the imperial guards case its a pyrhic victory every single time, your bullets will run out quicker than there numbers or armor will.

In game:

Melee isnt as underpowered as you think it is, if you dont believe me play as the tau for awhile

The tyranids would, in fact, be the easiest to deal with. The right biological agent and they're done, period. In the lore the Tau already succeeded in repelling the Tyranids, and doing it again wouldn't at all be hard.

As for the Orks, the Tau have had such an easy time with them that they actually use engagements against Orks as a field weapons test with minimal risk. The Orks would be as defenseless against biological agents as the Tyranids have shown to be, so it's only a matter of time before the Tau spring up a disease that spreads as fast as the Orks themselves, and then the species is just extinct.

[taochaitsung]

Цитата допису D-503:

2x Warp Beast Pack + Wych Squad + Archon = No More Ranged Units
Really, there are several damage types; some melee units tend to be anti-vehicle while others tend to be anti-personnel. You have to learn which one which in order to deal with the target at hand. Tying squads especially Tau units is extremely cruical. Sometimes you even have to charge in melee with your ranged units in order to, let's say, save an important unit, gain time or make the enemy busy.
It would be foolish to attack with one squad of melee to a chunk of ranged units, but if you're in a large battle, making your opponent microing single unit would be frustrating for him and ultimately give you the upper hand.

Air power, and it's not even close. The Dark Eldar will be easy pickings against a prepared force. The only thing the Dark Eldar are good at is hitting soft targets, and only if the other side pretty much lets them in.

[Uporcpine]

Цитата допису taochaitsung:

[
The tyranids would, in fact, be the easiest to deal with. The right biological agent and they're done, period. In the lore the Tau already succeeded in repelling the Tyranids, and doing it again wouldn't at all be hard.

As for the Orks, the Tau have had such an easy time with them that they actually use engagements against Orks as a field weapons test with minimal risk. The Orks would be as defenseless against biological agents as the Tyranids have shown to be, so it's only a matter of time before the Tau spring up a disease that spreads as fast as the Orks themselves, and then the species is just extinct.

Well in lore

You severly underestimate the Orks and the Tyranids. They are not just mindless hordes, but also cunning and extremly adaptable. Don't you think anyone tried biological agents against them? Even if its effective for a short time in the least the Tyranids could quickly adapt to it.

Also you often won't have the luxury of open field engagments. In urban warfare the enemy can come from any direction, and you also don't want to shoot your own city to pieces. In chaotic engagments the risk of friendly fire also becomes much greater.
If powerful target tracking technologies can exist, there's no reason that their counters, and visiblility limiting equipment wouldn't be availabe. Or just natural weather. Fight a Tyranid swarm in thick fog.

The thing that makes Warhammer interesting is that a lot of things are not human. They have greater resilience, much greater speed and fast reflexes, or endless numbers. Most guns are made for people to kill people, and our tactics are for humans figthing similary equipped humans. You can't just copy paste those there.

The complexity of the Tau is a strength, but also a pretty big weakness. They just have too many things that aren't easily replacable, one disaster can lead to a chain breakdown.

In game

Just like that if a Tau firing line holds, it is super effective, but if they start to get overwhelmed they're ♥♥♥♥♥♥. They are really easy to play in the base game against the AI though.

[Nerevars Goat Univeron]

Цитата допису taochaitsung:

Цитата допису Ominouscient:

LORE:

Most of your enemies have shields and armor that make using guns impractical, this is especially true for the tau, eldar and the imperium of man (contrary to what the fanboy in this thread says)

Sure you have super powerful ranged weaponry, how does that fare against a tyranid hive fleet rushing at you at 60mph and or dropping right on top of you? Or how about a squad of marines who not only have ranged weapons but armor that can take shot after shot without being hurt. Or god forbid your volley fire comes up against an ork WAAAGHHH and you get bum rushed and you better hope you have a melee weapon.

Yes ranged can still win some of these engagements but very rarely and in the imperial guards case its a pyrhic victory every single time, your bullets will run out quicker than there numbers or armor will.

In game:

Melee isnt as underpowered as you think it is, if you dont believe me play as the tau for awhile

The tyranids would, in fact, be the easiest to deal with. The right biological agent and they're done, period. In the lore the Tau already succeeded in repelling the Tyranids, and doing it again wouldn't at all be hard.

As for the Orks, the Tau have had such an easy time with them that they actually use engagements against Orks as a field weapons test with minimal risk. The Orks would be as defenseless against biological agents as the Tyranids have shown to be, so it's only a matter of time before the Tau spring up a disease that spreads as fast as the Orks themselves, and then the species is just extinct.

Biological agents would be completely useless against the tyranids. Everything on the ground was MEANT to die within a few weeks, and the hivemind is adaptable to the point where it'd be immune by the next batch. You might find success with one like, once, but the hivemind moves fast on that kinda thing

[Arii]

Цитата допису Nerevars Goat Volkbert:

Цитата допису taochaitsung:

The tyranids would, in fact, be the easiest to deal with. The right biological agent and they're done, period. In the lore the Tau already succeeded in repelling the Tyranids, and doing it again wouldn't at all be hard.

As for the Orks, the Tau have had such an easy time with them that they actually use engagements against Orks as a field weapons test with minimal risk. The Orks would be as defenseless against biological agents as the Tyranids have shown to be, so it's only a matter of time before the Tau spring up a disease that spreads as fast as the Orks themselves, and then the species is just extinct.

Biological agents would be completely useless against the tyranids. Everything on the ground was MEANT to die within a few weeks, and the hivemind is adaptable to the point where it'd be immune by the next batch. You might find success with one like, once, but the hivemind moves fast on that kinda thing

Real world example would be superbugs.