Amazing Game, but...

[Bastard]

Why did you recycle all the skyrim mobs? Would it have made you so much trouble to make something new instead of taking all the dwemer assets and put them 1:1 into enderal? I realy realy loved to discover old dwemer ruins in skyrim, and I realy hate you destroyed that part for me completely, I already saw everything in skyrim, literally the same walls,the same gates, the same artifacts,the same enemies. Real bummer.

I would love to get some insight here from the developers.

And yes I know it is FREE and you all gonna say stop whining... and I do truely love that game, It is one of the best rpg experiences for me so far, but I realy cant get my head around that asset recycling, it would have give the game so much more depth and immersion.

[MikeBob2013]

Technically, Enderal is a mod, and not a game. The game (complete with its engine and its assets) is Skyrim, which belongs to Bethesda, and SureAI (Enderal's creators) secured Bethesda's permission to use it/them for the foundation of their own unique production (legally, I don't think they can ask for payment for Enderal, since they'd essentially be receiving money for something that isn't theirs - and then most likely be sued for it as a result).

Introducing all brand new mob types, as opposed to 'recycling' those we're all used to seeing in Skyrim (i.e. Skyrim's assets), is likely something that would've incurred costs far in excess of whatever SureAI's budget (presumably) allowed for, and would almost certianly have taken Enderal well beyond the scope of simply being a Skyrim mod.

I could be wrong about this - I know very little about the project and its actual 'behind the scenes' history, admittedly, but based on my (albeit limited) understanding, this is pretty much how it stacks up.

Having said all this, Enderal's story has absolutely nothing to do with any of Skyrim's story lines or lore: they're completely separate entities. It would not, therefore, make any sense for Enderal to incorporate Skyrim's 'Dwemer' lore or history (any possible legal limitations notwithstanding).

In conclusion: Enderal's story apparently didn't have a use for the Dwemer (as we're used to calling them) or their artifacts/technology/ruins, beyond what we've actually seen in Enderal, so it really doesn't make sense to just 'plug them in' simply because they were in Skyrim.


* * * * *

P/S: So stop whining.

(JUST KIDDING! =D)

[Bastard]

Originally posted by MikeBob2013:

Technically, Enderal is a mod, and not a game. The game (complete with its engine and its assets) is Skyrim, which belongs to Bethesda, and SureAI (Enderal's creators) secured Bethesda's permission to use it/them for the foundation of their own unique production (legally, I don't think they can ask for payment for Enderal, since they'd essentially be receiving money for something that isn't theirs - and then most likely be sued for it as a result).

Introducing all brand new mob types, as opposed to 'recycling' those we're all used to seeing in Skyrim (i.e. Skyrim's assets), is likely something that would've incurred costs far in excess of whatever SureAI's budget (presumably) allowed for, and would almost certianly have taken Enderal well beyond the scope of being a Skyrim mod.

I could be wrong about this - I know very little about the project and its actual 'behind the scenes' history, admittedly, but based on my (albeit limited) understanding, this is pretty much how it stacks up.

Having said all this, Enderal's story has absolutely nothing to do with any of Skyrim's story lines or lore: they're completely separate entities. It would not, therefore, make any sense for Enderal to incorporate Skyrim's 'Dwemer' lore or history (any possible legal limitations notwithstanding).

In conclusion, it seems to me like Enderal's story just didn't have a use for the Dwemer (as we're used to calling them) or their artifacts/technology/ruins, beyond what we've actually seen in Enderal, and so it wouldn't really make sense to 'plug them in' simply because they existed in Skyrim.

You did not understand my post sadly. It would have been nice that the old civilisations in enderal got their own assets, and not the dwemer assets, In no point I have said that skyrim's story/world have anything to do with Enderal/Nehrim. Besides that, to let a couple of 3D artist create some assets for the most interesting parts of the game can't be that big of a husstle compared to the manwork needed for the voice acting etc.

[MikeBob2013]

I get your point, but in lamenting the lack of more original artwork or designs for Enderal, I think you're ignoring the fact that Enderal is a mod that was put together on what had to have been a very small (or at least relatively small) production budget.

Perhaps the reason they could afford quality voice acting is because they freed up the money for it by 'recycling skyrim mobs'?

To expect anything different than the Enderal we currently have (in my view) would be inviting cost incursions that might well have jeopardized the project entirely. (And frankly, I'm surprised that they're still putting any time/effort into Enderal all, considering that it's been on Steam nearly a year and Nehrim: At Fate's Edge is being prepared for Steam release in 2020.)

As the old saying goes, 'you can't have your cake and eat it too' - you can't have a mod this size that's cost free (yes, I said it) to the players, and *also* expect it to have all kinds of original artwork too. I just don't see how it would work.

[Bastard]

Welp, I think 3 own mob types for the Starling's would not have been to much to ask for. I just read on the SureAI site that they got the Voice Acting totally for free, and they are selling a lot of merchandise, which I will order next month aswell. It would have just been a so much better experience. The dev staff does all the work for free, and they have 3D artists on the team, I just would like to see the behind the scenes reasoning :-) I am not hating at all, I appreciate their work extremely. Just a few more workhours and we could have had amazing Starling Robots instead of dwemer.

[MikeBob2013]

I understand.

I guess the way you feel about the Dwemer models, I also feel about the Arp/Falmer and Pus Beetle/Chaurus models - I wish they used just about ANYTHING else, because whenever I see them I'm reminded of when & where I saw them first (and I think they're disgusting to look at ), so now they look very 'out of place' in Enderal. (Fortunately there are relatively few of them compared to other mob types.)

I'd also like to see more dragons in Enderal's skies - even if it was impossible to interact with them - but I guess that's a different matter.

And I didn't know they got the voice acting done for free. That's pretty impressive, considering how good it is (overall), and how much of it there is. Enderal is smaller than Skyrim, but it seems to have nearly as many NPCs (perhaps even more).

Cheers. ;)

[Krag]

For me, Enderal had the perfect worldbuilding to make me forget that I had already seen most of the assets in Skyrim.
Not only that, but the way they built the Pyrean ruins and all the caves and dungeons is vastly different from the copy pasted building blocks used all over Skyrim. Enderal managed to feel both fresh and familiar.

I understand the complaints, but asset recycling is the main reason why we're able to play the game today.

[stuemper]

I feel you.
However, you've already answered your question by asking it.

Originally posted by Bastard:

[...] I already saw everything in skyrim, literally the same walls,the same gates, the same artifacts,the same enemies. Real bummer. [...]

This whole statement is weird in itself. Let me explain why. On one hand you name all these things and you acknowledge that it's a whole lot of stuff that's the same, and on the other hand you name them as it can be done quickly, 40 new wall sections here, a dozen new barrels, 150 new rocks there, mix in a couple dozen new NPC models. Oh, and have I mentioned that these are just the bare models. No textures done, no animations done, no rigging. No shaders. No scripting around these things done. No polishing. Nothing.
The statement in itself is contrary.

But to fully explain why it is how it is, I have to dive a bit deeper. And I need to quote a bunch of things from various replies in this thread. And to note this beforehand, I did lots of programming, scripting and quest design for Enderal, but I also was one of the people who were responsible for the project management.
Ah, and one more thing: I don't take this personally, I feel like I need to comment on this, since I would've also liked a lot more new models, textures and other exciting new things in Enderal, but there are a couple reasons, why things are how they are.

The Enderal project started in 2011 (8 years as of now), even before Skyrim was released and basically right after the previous project of our Team was released, which was called Nehrim. It has been what Enderal is to Skyrim, a total conversion, which also was about ~4 years in the working or something like that. And prior to that we also had even more projects. Basically the team was into modding since the early 2000s and in 2003 SureAI was founded.

Originally posted by Bastard:

Welp, I think 3 own mob types for the Starling's would not have been to much to ask for. I just read on the SureAI site that they got the Voice Acting totally for free, and they are selling a lot of merchandise, which I will order next month aswell. It would have just been a so much better experience. The dev staff does all the work for free, and they have 3D artists on the team, I just would like to see the behind the scenes reasoning :-) I am not hating at all, I appreciate their work extremely. Just a few more workhours and we could have had amazing Starling Robots instead of dwemer.

Lots of things in here, that I need to say something about.

Yes, no one of us got payed, since this is a modding project. Basically every donation went into paying the server costs or into paying program licenses.
Having lots of merch on the website doesn't mean that it sells well, we haven't even promoted it anywhere yet (but will do with the next patch). The whole merch thing was relatively new and set up about two months ago.

During Enderal's development the amount of team members fluctuated constantly. One week we had ten people working on things, the next week maybe one person.
For example, for the last half a year since Enderal's steam release, I've been the only active developer and prior to that we were only a handful, like 4-5 people dedicated to implementing stuff. Of course there were a couple testers and moderators in the forums, but they did stuff around the game but not really worked with the engine etc.

We had a lot of applications of modelers and various artist, but most of them stuck around only for a moment and usually left unfinished work behind. Finishing someone else's work is tedious, especially if it's code, animations, models, textures or anything like that, because you need a really specified knowledge about it. And it takes away from the time you've got for your own stuff and deadlines you've got to meet. And this basically happened constantly.
So a lot of work was left unfinished or, simply due to lack of time and people, was never touched in the first place.

Conclusion: Finding capable people is less of a problem, but motivating them to finish their work and to stick around for a longer period of time is. Especially if the finished project gets released in a couple years time.

To pick up on the topic that just 3 more mob types would have made a difference: Yes, and probably a negative difference. And I'll explain why.
As I already mentioned beforehand, creating models is incredibly time-consuming. Depending on the detail it can take weeks to create a model. But that's just the getting the proportions and muscles right, adding cloths etc. Then someone needs to texture the whole model, then someone needs to rig it onto a skeleton for animation purposes that is either pre-defined or that needs to be created. Then the actual animations need to be created. Even if you find and coordinate people who want to give their free time, these three models still need to fit to the game, game world, especially to their environment they are located in. You would be better off to just re-create every (taking your main critique point) "dwemer" object anew to get an cohesive / overarching look of things. When "just" creating 3 new models, it can happen very easily that they will look and feel off.
And then be the person who tells the animator, modeler and texture artist, that the hundreds of hours of work they've put in were useless, simply because it won't be in the game since they don't fit to the other models visually.
Why waste the time with your talent, when you can get paid elsewhere for the same work.

Originally posted by Bastard:

[...] Besides that, to let a couple of 3D artist create some assets for the most interesting parts of the game can't be that big of a husstle compared to the manwork needed for the voice acting etc.

I can't stress it enough that you criminally underestimate how much time and effort it takes. Everything about creating games takes a lot of time, not just the coding and implementing of quests, perks, talents or designing and implementing an enormous open world and many dungeons or recording of voice lines or writing the story.

Literally thousands of assets in Enderal are custom made for Enderal or are borrowed from other mod authors (with their permissions of course). Look at the vegetation (trees, grass, flowers, bushes...), a whole bunch of unique weapons and armor sets, dozens of new rocks and rock formations and many more. And then they custom textures that were needed for those, the custom animations for certain NPCs ... and the list goes on. We even bought asset sets (models + textures for the pyrean ruins for example). They were originally made for other engines and we needed to port them over.
And then you still need to make sure that it performs fairly "well" on as many PC setups as possible.

Originally posted by MikeBob2013:

Introducing all brand new mob types, as opposed to 'recycling' those we're all used to seeing in Skyrim (i.e. Skyrim's assets), is likely something that would've incurred costs far in excess of whatever SureAI's budget (presumably) allowed for, and would almost certianly have taken Enderal well beyond the scope of simply being a Skyrim mod.

It is more a lack of motivation, time and people (all of these go hand in hand) rather than budget alone. Funnily enough budget doesn't matter that much if you do it as a non-commercial hobby in your free time, as long as you have another source of income of course. As soon as you do it commercially it becomes something else completely, then it's about paying people to keep them motivated, since it's their income and they rely on it.

I've already touched upon time. This project was done in free time, meaning after school, after university, after work, we came home and worked all night long. Working on something with passion makes the time fly by incredibly fast. I've got about 5,800 hours logged in the Skyrim Creation Kit, 1,200 hours in Skyrim (about 1000 of which are Enderal time), and about 300 hours logged on Enderal itself on my Steam account. Not taking into account the work outside of Steam's tracking, for example a bunch of modding tools, like xedit, nifskope etc and the time spend in organizing and documenting stuff in spreadsheets and much more. That's only me, take that amount times ten and you maybe get an idea how many hours gone into this.

At one point you realize that you have to make cuts somewhere if you want it to release it one day and if you don't want to work on it when you're 60.

We finally released Enderal in 2016. And then we released a bunch of bugfix patches while starting working on more content that became the "Forgotten Stories" DLC in the end. But since we still had no active artists that were purely dedicated to modelling, texturing etc. most of the new content also has been quests and new classes etc. The new content was released in February 2019.

Originally posted by MikeBob2013:

I understand.
[...]
I guess the way you feel about the Dwemer models, I also feel about the Arp/Falmer and Pus Beetle/Chaurus models [...]

We had custom models and textures for Arps but they needed to be removed because they were the cause of some crashes and the modeler and the texture artist who created them have been long gone.

One could probably argue: "The projects Skyblivion and Skywind recreate every assets too."
That's true but guess why it's taking them so long to release those projects? They need to recreate every asset, implement every quest, every NPC etc. I have huge respect for their projects because of that.


So, I hope that this gave some insight into this whole matter and why we recycled a whole lot of assets. And again, I don't take this personally, even if this response might sound harsher than it was meant to be.
It's late over here, I'll fix the typos and the grammatical nonsense, that I probably fabricated while writing this, tomorrow. I just felt like something needed to be said about this topic :)

[Bastard]

It's late here too... and I am german btw, but in exile, and I prefer to talk in english so more people can contribute in the conversation :-)

And no, it doesnt sound harsh at all, and what I said was also not meant to be harsh. I realy love the result of all your work, it is truely amazing.

Well, the main thing that I did dislike was not the enviormental assets, not at all, they mostly fit in very well and I noticed the pyrean ruins are not vanilla sykrim at all, but there have been a few "bossfights" against starling constructions, and they all have just been dwemer Centurios which made me very sad :( . I wished atleast something special for Horst.

I thank you a lot for your VERY indept insight.

Much Love

[MikeBob2013]

Originally posted by stuemper:

(...)

I just felt like something needed to be said about this topic :)

Thank you for taking the time to shed some light on Enderal's backstory, and to share your insights about the process here in this thread. It means an awful lot, considering how much time and effort you've already invested in Enderal (plus monitoring these discussions, the bugtracker, etc).

I also really appreciate the many environmental details in Enderal that make it superior to Skyrim in lots of ways (dungeon design is one of my favorites), because without a really well designed and implemented environment, 'immersion' becomes difficult, if not impossible .

There's a lot more I could say, but really I just wanted to say thanks - for everything.

Have a great week.

Peace.

[Metzelmax]

It's a mod, dude. Do you think they should just make a total new game and use the skyrim engine of all things just cause? Then they might as well just have used Unreal or unity and made a comercial product.

[Bastard]

Originally posted by Metzelmax:

It's a mod, dude. Do you think they should just make a total new game and use the skyrim engine of all things just cause? Then they might as well just have used Unreal or unity and made a comercial product.

Dude... just get out of here please. You did not read my posts, or you did not understand them. Every kind of product deserves... no actually NEEDS critic, without critic there can not be improvements. You did not give anything constructive to this conversation, so you might aswell delete your comment. And in no point I have said that every asset of the game has to be original, I said the eviormental assets are very well in place, what disturbed me was only the few dwemer mobs that were used for the starlings. I do not mind the undead mobs,spiders etc, they fit in very well in my opinion. But the dwemer npc's were not fitting IMHO.

[Lenny235]

read this ama from Nicolas Lietzau. It gives some insight I think you're looking for. Basically the bulk of the game was made by two people (maybe this is unfair, it was lead by two people), and because of diminishing returns on working with an old engine, wanted to put the game out as quickly as possible (it still took 4+ years!).
So, many things had to be cut from the final release (for example, smithing was useless in the base game as well, because of time/resource constraints).

https://forum.sureai.net/viewtopic.php?t=11093

[cycleboxer]

The game lost me when I realized it was a feminist woman power crap game and I put it right back down.

[Eternie]

I'm dam impressed with Enderal the whole SureAI team and the dedication to modding their games and supporting their games and answering all of our silly questions.

Thanks for the description of what it takes stuemper
I may have to buy the other SureAI games and get prepared for the next episode!

[MikeBob2013]

Originally posted by Eternie:

I'm dam impressed with Enderal the whole SureAI team and the dedication to modding their games and supporting their games and answering all of our silly questions.

Thanks for the description of what it takes stuemper
I may have to buy the other SureAI games and get prepared for the next episode!

+1