is enchantment useless now?

[AggroBuLLeT]

i think it got overnerfed.

pre patch: mage tree gave you 30% enchantment bonus. phasmalist tree gave you 20/20/20 % enchantment bonus

post patch: mage tree gives you 10% enchantment bonus phasmalist tree gives you 10/5/5% entchantment bonus.

so enchantment got nerfed from 90% total bonus to 30% only.

so how strong is enchantment compared to set items now? if its the same or even worse, then its obviously completely useless now. no one invests 10+ lvl ups, soul gems and tons of books into something that you an get for FREE on the streets.

the problem is i cant test it myself. i never really bothered to collect set items, since my plan was from the start to craft / enchant my own sets.

so can someone here test this? does anyone have high level sets and can test if they are in fact stronger or on par as enchanted equipment?

i need to know before i invest anymore memory points / books into enchantment.

edit: from the information i gathered from here and the reddit thread, it seems that most seem to agree that enchanting is utterly garbage now and becomes ' ok' after HEAVY stat investment ( e.g. very late into the game ).

tl;dr not worth it.

if you already invested in enchanting perks and books, you can respec / reset your skill / memory points with this mod -> https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/78474

i just tested this and it seems to work perfectly. however as with every mod: USE IT AT YOUR OWN RISK.

[Nerevar]

% enchantmants cannot be applied to weapons by default. atleast not trough the game via the enchanter by the player. only trough the ck directly. it would also make all normal enchanted weapons pointless compared.

the perks are fine now. alchemy also doesnt get more than a 35% boost form perks. smithing doesnt get any % boost from perks.
why should enchanting get 60 or 90%? there is no reason for that as enchanting as a skill itself is way stronger in enderal by default than it was in skyrim. so these perks where just absolute overkill for enderals version of enchant. 30-40% is fine. any more is breaking the game no matter what enchant is at play.

a single item shouldnt provide zero mana cost for a spelltype. that wasnt the case in skyrim either (unless you exploited the bugged fiortify restoration % crap which made no sense in the first place to affect alchemy)

the only issue that currently remains are these % enchantments and the % enchantment selfmade potions. the later is easy to get rid off. thats like 5 minutes of work on the ck editing just 5 indegrints.

the % enchantmants are a different case. i forwarded a fix to get these under control to the devs without nerfing enchanting any further itself.

will see if they take it or come with thier own solution or ignore the issue entirely. given sureai put alot of effort into balanceing the classes and set and other items in thier mod i doubt theyll ignore this forever as its just too obivious of a problem numbers wise.

[Nerevar]

nerfing the % direclty wont fix the underlying issues with them. i have tought about this for a long long time before i posted a report on it to make sure i took everything into account that this impacts balance wise.

i fully understand you. the problem here is : you are wrong and this is not because of what i think about you or because i view some things differently its wrong simply form a pure numbers standpoint which has to be logical if you want your game to be halfway balanced (perfect balance is impossible and not needed)

why? because currently even at 50 points and 1 perk enchanting IS the most useful crafting skill. you claim its useless. you are aware that something like rhetoric is way worse to put your points into currently?

same for handicraft with the changes they did with the last patch? all rhetoric is good for is some extra dialoge options and a very small amount of extra exp and extra gold. both of which are infinitely available in enderal by default without putting 1 point into this skill.

the same isnt true for enchantment. you wont be able to get this without leveling it at all. and you can cap it already at lvl 20. plenty of levels left to level other crafting skills afterwards.

did you ever look at the values you can already create with 1 perk and 50 enchantment? did you ever compare these to the stuff you can find? you can already make better or similar stuff than what you can find (excludeing setitems) at 50 enchant with no perks.

because enchanting scales like crazy by itself. for example there is not a single amulet that gives more than 5-6% weapon damage in the whole game. there is no pair of boots or gloves that does this either. so even a 15% boost enchant already surpasses most stuff on these slots already compared to anything you could find even at the tail end of the game.

enchant surpasses that already at 50 points and without any perks. calling that useless is more than just a stretch therefore.

an example : raiseing enchantment from 50 to 55 will you show a difference in enchant power already.
now try the same with handicraft. you wont notice a difference in gear/weapon improvements at all.
enchantment scales better than most skills do currently. if you buff the perks you would have to nerf this scaling instead which would lead to the same result. you cannot keep both. that just breaks the game numbers wise.
game balance is a matter of pure number logics in the end.

also that perk in the mage tree is absolutly fine now. why? because you completly ignore the fact this same perk also grants you an ability that makes dealing with arcane fever a complete joke aswell ON TOP of the enchanting bonus. for a perk that is like only 4 points total cost if youre not a mage already anyway as then its even less.

sure you could buff the 3 stage perk to 10%10%/10%. that is something i could see happen without breaking anything but only if the other 2 issues are addressed beforehand or at the same time. (i personally think they overshot the nerf on the 3 stage perk. i suggested them 5/10/15% myself. instead they went 10/5/5 which i personally view as a bit odd but that is just 10% in the end which really isnt that big a of a deal or issue currently compared the other 2 things)

numbers balance in an rpg of this size is never an easy feat or something you pull off flawlessly. but you have to atleast TRY to make it happen as a dev. and sureai does this way better than most so called triple A publishers these days.

[Nerevar]

it isnt weak currently either. please have a good look at the actual numbers in the game. you say its weak. but the numbers disagree with that strongly. and this is not only for % weapon enchantments. you can make better magic resist gear aswell without haveing any perks compared to findable stuff at just 50 enchantment. without ANY perks learned. that speaks for itself.

yes its unfair for mages. but the solution is not to give mages access to it aswell. the solution is to limit these effects greatly. nerfing them direclty wont pull that off. as the stackable nature is the core issue with them + the lack of a cap on thier effects.

15% is too much. dont forgot you can grab a free 7% boost on demand from the fixed alchemy potion (this requires zero alchemy leveling). add that to the 30% from perks and you reach 37% already. the total effects should not ever exceed 50%. that is asking for trouble literally. there is also the fact of free skillboosts from certain items which are way stronger than it looks like at first.

should a mage be able to not need mana anymore with just 2 items? the answer is no. as that defeats the point of leveling up mana completly. if you allow a 15% per perk you end up with precisely that tough.

i dont want enchanting to be nerfed into the ground if that is what you think. i want enchanting to be useful without it ruineing the entire mods balance. i dont think " i dont like this so it needs a nerf" i look purely at the numbers and ask myself "is this reasonable or not?" and to answer that question i compare these numbers to the rest of the game.

of course all crafting skills are weaker when lower level. thats how it should be. i mean you say enchanting without all perks and buff is now useless/weak. when i look at handicrafting or rhetorics or lockpicking compared to enchanting at low levels i instantly can tell that is not correct purely by numbers alone.

as enchanting is still better than all of these even at lower levels. sure it wont be better right off the bat than stuff you can find. but that makes logical sense that isnt the case. it isnt the case for other crafting talents either. its use wont start to show until you INVEST into it. thats how things should be as it makes logical sense.

i didnt pull these suggestions or ideas out of my ass. i crosscheck stuff before i claim such things. either the skills scaling itself needed to be toned down or the perks. sureai choose the perks. it wasnt possible to keep both as that was so far ahead of anything else that it would have been flat out impossible to bring other stuff even remotely close to it.

[Krutsi]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Nerevar:

did you ever look at the values you can already create with 1 perk and 50 enchantment? did you ever compare these to the stuff you can find? you can already make better or similar stuff than what you can find (excludeing setitems) at 50 enchant with no perks.

I did. Did you? Also stop using the one thing literally everyone agrees being broken as your only example.

At 73 enchanting (lowest I can go with this character) and 4 perks, the enchants I can make with grand souls are in no particular order:


33% resistance
18% magic resist
24% sneak
36 stamina
22 health
27 mana
22 armor skill
15% spell cost/ 8% manaregen
22% spell cost
27% block

I don't pay too much attention to percentage values on the random loot I vendor off, but I'm pretty sure I've seen comparable values for all of these.

Without perks and 50 skill you're going to be reducing these values by what, -30%? Midlevel sets like Selna and Fallen are way better than that result and the dropped jewelry is not significantly weaker either. And the elephant in the room is that these all require grand soul gems, which really are not plentiful at all until you get to the lategame and would have access to high level sets as well. Using a greater is a straight -33% on these values, and a common is -66%.

Enchantment is completely useless in its current form when you're not using grand souls. And even with grand souls it's questionable at best until you actually start going past 100 skill with the 4 perks.

Personally I would like to see damage% enchants and enchanting alchemy potions removed completely, gem effect on enchant strength made into a much less steep curve and the introduction of double enchanting from the base game. Wouldn't hurt to have access to some more interesting enchants too.

[Nerevar]

first off. youre not using any of the enchant boosting items. which ARE available at anytime to you while you play. did you use the 7% potion which you can also grab at anytime?

also useing weak soul gems as an argument is grasping for straws. why? because youre trying to argue that enchanting should end up overpowered so its "useful" at lower skill values. that is nonsense. as you wont be staying at that value for long unless you purposefully do so. and these soulgems are not even that rare when you look at the ck. and you only need a certain amount of them.

you act like you should be able to use enchanting all the way from peasant to hero. that is not logical. you have to invest into it first. do you gain much benefit from handicraft improvements at 50? the answer is no.

do you gain much beneift from rhetorics in total? also a no. this is true for all crafting skills. why do you think it should work differently for enchanting?

its not useless by any means. youre grasping for straws here and i hope you realize this. as you didnt compare that to the other crafting skills at all in terms of usefulness. enchanting also allows you to make higher tier phasmalist talismans on top of all this.
while on handicraft you can achieve all blueprints without putting points into it AT ALL. so leveling handicraft is USELESS if anything currently. youre grossly misusing that term to create an argument here.

now for the effects.

18% magic resist is better than ANY normal item in the mod.this includes sets. 15% is the highest you can find normally. reduce by 33%. 10%. close enough to the best effects given you didnt really invest into it at that point yet. other crafting skills are way worse at that level of investment in terms of bonuses provided.

elemental resistences are pointless by default. will stay like this aslong as magic resist exists. was true for skyrim aswell. this is not related to enchanting at all. best items are at 40%.

36 stamina is far more than any setitem will grant you.

22 health. the highest bonus you can gain for this from the best setitems is 30 points(skaragg chestpiece). close enough given your power isnt at its max potential yet by any means.

roughly the same for mana.

22 heavy armor. highest bonus for this is 15 points from skragg set piece.

best shield with blockbonus is 20%.

22% cost reduction. most setpieces even inodan/wandering mage (best mage sets) grant you way lower reductions than this.

and you claim these are USELESS values? gimme a break here. and your enchanting isnt even close to maxed out potential yet.

what do you want? that enchanting already surpasses anything else at 40 points without perks and weak soulgems? do you have any idea what that would do at highend then?

you have to consider peak potential for balance. not low level potential as youre not staying at low level potential for long in this mod.

and flat out NO to double enchant. that perk was probaly the most broken crap in vanilla skyrim. it flat out made enchantment twice as good with 1 single perk point. its good that this isnt in enderal.

now makeing weaker souls and gems a bit more useful is something i would not mind in fact thats actually a good idea. but you would have to still keep them weaker than mighty with grand at the end still.

but the rest is fine as is aside the aforementioned effects.

[Plox]

Opprinnelig skrevet av cruzz:

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So on my character 50 Ench and 3 Perks, I can still get 22% Fortify Entropy with Grand Soul gems + Alchemy Pot, you can put that on Armor, Rings and Amulets (I think cloaks as well but im not sure)

And isnt the whole point of enchanting to be able to make items which are as good as set items just more specialized ?
Enchanting isnt supposed to just make you op ...
Right now the only problem i have with enchanting are the restrictions around certain armor types, e.g if i wanna enchant my boots with Fortify Entropy it should let me, and then just add a limit to how far you can reduce spell cost or improve one handed or what ever.

[Krutsi]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Nerevar:

first off. youre not using any of the enchant boosting items. which ARE available at anytime to you while you play. did you use the 7% potion which you can also grab at anytime?

I didn't, why would I? I wasn't trying to show off the max or anything, just what the enchants are in the middle of the possible skill range. Also the enchantment potion does show up in your displayed skill at the table so it's kinda pointless to ask when people are stating the skill level already.

also useing weak soul gems as an argument is grasping for straws. why? because youre trying to argue that enchanting should end up overpowered so its "useful" at lower skill values. that is nonsense. as you wont be staying at that value for long unless you purposefully do so. and these soulgems are not even that rare when you look at the ck. and you only need a certain amount of them.

You do realize that they could REDUCE scaling on grand soul gems? That said I don't think that enchanting values are out of line even with maxed skill with grand souls as long as alchemy doesn't come into play. If you "know where to look", you can also just go pick up any number of top level set items and pre-enchanted weapons too, powergaming as an argument for gems is silly.

you act like you should be able to use enchanting all the way from peasant to hero. that is not logical. you have to invest into it first. do you gain much benefit from handicraft improvements at 50? the answer is no.

Um, yeah i do? Exquisite is a decent 10% boost on the base armor and damage values. And obviously being able to craft stuff like bags is a big boost. Don't think I've picked up a single premade bag better than medium and I've played through a lot of the game.

do you gain much beneift from rhetorics in total? also a no. this is true for all crafting skills. why do you think it should work differently for enchanting?

No, but I'd get a big benefit from having maxed alchemy and all the alchemy perks instead. I also probably would've saved quite a lot of money if I had lockpicking higher instead of using scrolls.

enchanting also allows you to make higher tier phasmalist talismans on top of all this.

Yes, I'm actually using phasmalist talismans. Playing on path of iron, the general way they work in any fight where I'd actually want some kind of help is they get into melee range with an enemy and instantly vaporize because their AI is terrible and even if you bother running a buff ring for them they still don't reach buffed player health and armor values and plenty of things do over half of health in a single hit.

18% magic resist is better than ANY normal item in the mod.this includes sets. 15% is the highest you can find normally. reduce by 33%. 10%. close enough to the best effects given you didnt really invest into it at that point yet. other crafting skills are way worse at that level of investment in terms of bonuses provided.

I do feel like I would've seen higher percentages than 15%, but ok. I've already lost count of how many of those 15% MR shields I've pawned off to vendors though, so wasting a grand soul crafting a weaker one certainly sounds weird.

36 stamina is far more than any setitem will grant you.

22 health. the highest bonus you can gain for this from the best setitems is 30 points(skaragg chestpiece). close enough given your power isnt at its max potential yet by any means.

roughly the same for mana.

22 heavy armor. highest bonus for this is 15 points from skragg set piece.

The difference being those set items have 4 bonuses each while your crafted item has one. I can't even craft a set that gives as much stat total as Fallen with those values, nevermind Skaragg.

22% cost reduction. most setpieces even inodan/wandering mage (best mage sets) grant you way lower reductions than this.

20% cost reduction items are literally everywhere. Not on the sets sure, but not like the set bonuses are strong enough for you to care that much about missing out on one piece if you really want some specific stat not on it so much.

what do you want? that enchanting already surpasses anything else at 40 points without perks and weak soulgems? do you have any idea what that would do at highend then?

Well, I'd like to be able to make something that I'd actually want to use. The only point in the game when I actually used self-enchanted stuff was when I crafted a set of starling stuff right after getting into Ark and put some greater gem enchants on them. Went straight into the trash bin as I picked up some set items, though partly because the starling set is kinda ugly...

you have to consider peak potential for balance. not low level potential as youre not staying at low level potential for long in this mod.

Peak potential? Nothing can touch you 1vs1 once you're level 40+ whether you're using enchanting or not and group combat is not really about stats so much as just not getting surrounded because you can't really stop getting staggered with 5 guys hitting on you.

[Nerevar]

Opprinnelig skrevet av AggroBuLLeT:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Plox:

And isnt the whole point of enchanting to be able to make items which are as good as set items just more specialized ?

no. better. considerable better.

keep in mind that you need to invest a huge amount of money ( books ), crafting points, grand soulgems etc.

if it was just as good ( or a little ) better than stuff you get for free ( like set items + their bonuses ) then there would be no point in ever going for enchanting. it needs to be worth it.


im to lazy right now, but in the near future ill scan through the wiki and get every ( high end ) set and their numbers, and add the bonus effects on it for all set pieces. then compare it to enchanting.

again: dont count alchemy potions or %dmg. we all agree that they are broken. lets just IMAGINE they were already removed from the game. this is all just theory crafting right now.

save yourself the trouble. as i already did that a good while ago. hence why i say youre wrong. and again you put OPINION over actual number logic. where do you get the idea that it SHOULD be considerably better because you INVEST so much into it when most of your "so much" is purely made up. money in enderal is INFINITE. crafting points are EXTRA and free aswell. here is a news for you : ALL SKILLS ARE LIKE THAT. why do you pretend enchanting is different? its not.

why on earth do you think enchanting should be better than any setitem ASWELL when its already the best for jewelery and shields and weapons? why even have setitems then in the game? WHY? may aswell remove them all when enchanting is flat out better in the end for everything. are you really just that blind to number logic or do you base this purely on your idea what should be the case? i assume its the later by now. you want everything else to be useless because for some reason you think thats how it should be.

no single skill in the game should invalidate all other stuff. that is simply not logical by any means. no matter how much you invest into it.

[Nerevar]

Opprinnelig skrevet av cruzz:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Nerevar:

first off. youre not using any of the enchant boosting items. which ARE available at anytime to you while you play. did you use the 7% potion which you can also grab at anytime?

I didn't, why would I? I wasn't trying to show off the max or anything, just what the enchants are in the middle of the possible skill range. Also the enchantment potion does show up in your displayed skill at the table so it's kinda pointless to ask when people are stating the skill level already.

also useing weak soul gems as an argument is grasping for straws. why? because youre trying to argue that enchanting should end up overpowered so its "useful" at lower skill values. that is nonsense. as you wont be staying at that value for long unless you purposefully do so. and these soulgems are not even that rare when you look at the ck. and you only need a certain amount of them.

You do realize that they could REDUCE scaling on grand soul gems? That said I don't think that enchanting values are out of line even with maxed skill with grand souls as long as alchemy doesn't come into play. If you "know where to look", you can also just go pick up any number of top level set items and pre-enchanted weapons too, powergaming as an argument for gems is silly.

you act like you should be able to use enchanting all the way from peasant to hero. that is not logical. you have to invest into it first. do you gain much benefit from handicraft improvements at 50? the answer is no.

Um, yeah i do? Exquisite is a decent 10% boost on the base armor and damage values. And obviously being able to craft stuff like bags is a big boost. Don't think I've picked up a single premade bag better than medium and I've played through a lot of the game.

do you gain much beneift from rhetorics in total? also a no. this is true for all crafting skills. why do you think it should work differently for enchanting?

No, but I'd get a big benefit from having maxed alchemy and all the alchemy perks instead. I also probably would've saved quite a lot of money if I had lockpicking higher instead of using scrolls.

enchanting also allows you to make higher tier phasmalist talismans on top of all this.

Yes, I'm actually using phasmalist talismans. Playing on path of iron, the general way they work in any fight where I'd actually want some kind of help is they get into melee range with an enemy and instantly vaporize because their AI is terrible and even if you bother running a buff ring for them they still don't reach buffed player health and armor values and plenty of things do over half of health in a single hit.

18% magic resist is better than ANY normal item in the mod.this includes sets. 15% is the highest you can find normally. reduce by 33%. 10%. close enough to the best effects given you didnt really invest into it at that point yet. other crafting skills are way worse at that level of investment in terms of bonuses provided.

I do feel like I would've seen higher percentages than 15%, but ok. I've already lost count of how many of those 15% MR shields I've pawned off to vendors though, so wasting a grand soul crafting a weaker one certainly sounds weird.

36 stamina is far more than any setitem will grant you.

22 health. the highest bonus you can gain for this from the best setitems is 30 points(skaragg chestpiece). close enough given your power isnt at its max potential yet by any means.

roughly the same for mana.

22 heavy armor. highest bonus for this is 15 points from skragg set piece.

The difference being those set items have 4 bonuses each while your crafted item has one. I can't even craft a set that gives as much stat total as Fallen with those values, nevermind Skaragg.

22% cost reduction. most setpieces even inodan/wandering mage (best mage sets) grant you way lower reductions than this.

20% cost reduction items are literally everywhere. Not on the sets sure, but not like the set bonuses are strong enough for you to care that much about missing out on one piece if you really want some specific stat not on it so much.

what do you want? that enchanting already surpasses anything else at 40 points without perks and weak soulgems? do you have any idea what that would do at highend then?

Well, I'd like to be able to make something that I'd actually want to use. The only point in the game when I actually used self-enchanted stuff was when I crafted a set of starling stuff right after getting into Ark and put some greater gem enchants on them. Went straight into the trash bin as I picked up some set items, though partly because the starling set is kinda ugly...

you have to consider peak potential for balance. not low level potential as youre not staying at low level potential for long in this mod.

Peak potential? Nothing can touch you 1vs1 once you're level 40+ whether you're using enchanting or not and group combat is not really about stats so much as just not getting surrounded because you can't really stop getting staggered with 5 guys hitting on you.

i have no problem with enchanting beeing on about the same level as setitems. but currently enchanting is FAR ahead of them despite the nerf to it.

again this is about number logic not about makeing the game "more difficult".

ok you want to be able to make something you WANT TO USE. when is that condition reached? that is way to cryptic as an argument. its also highly personal opinon on when something is considered useful by a person. while number logic remains number logic.

yes these sets have 4 bonuses. now add these 4 bonuses together form all 4 pieces if even all 4 have them. then compare that to maxed out enchantment of ONE item. youll be suprised how close that is or where enchantment ends up flat out superior with just ONE item instead of 4. 1 large bonus is better than 4 small bonuses in most cases.

what you FEEL to have seen in regards to magic resist isnt reality. the fact is 15% is the maximum you can find. this includes setitems. most sets have 1 single instance of magic resist. for example whole skaragg set has 10% magic resist. skybreaker has ZERO magic resist currently as individual resists are worse than magic resist and sickness resist is well. it was already pointless in skyrim same for the individual resists. so skybreaker set wastes 4 slots on something you can obtain with 1 slot for example.

check this out :

full skragg set stats (this includes set bonuses)
7 points melee dmg. (unique to sets and cannot be used for enchanting)
17% onehanded damage bonus total. ---> 1 single slot with enchanting already surpasses both of these above together by a mile currently. 2hand is even worse so i used only 1 hand here.

36 points heavy armor. ----> 1 slot of enchanted gear provides you with literally the same if not higher bonus if your enchanting is highly skilled.

90 health total. (includes setbonus) ----> before the nerf enchantaing surpassed this with 1 slot of gear. currently probaly the only stat where sets are ahead a bit.

27% better block total (includes setbonus) 1 single enchanted highend piece can currently reach more than DOUBLE of that.

10% magic resistence. we dont even have to argue this one as we can see.

19 stamina. > blatantly obivious.

the handicraft bonus is useless in combat directly so ill ignore that one. its also only 13 points and you cannot make this effect with enchanting at all.

that is 7 different effects total. how many slots do you have for enchanting ? OH 7 aswell. so lets be fair and ignore the shield slot here so is only 6. so you would have to drop 1 of these 7 bonuses but you would end up with better stats in every other one of them with enchanting in its current form. on top of better damage mind you.

so yeah. you technically have more bonuses with the set. but these setbonuses are overall not stronger than 1 single enchant slot in majority of cases. and this is AFTER the recent nerf. its still stronger now.

i get that nobody wants enchanting to be useless. but instead of trying to make it the end all be all like skyrim did it you can strive for a balance to make more stuff useful in the end.

example :

weapon. best one made by handicraft. (the case currently except for 2hand which is probaly a bug) all of these carry no enchantment (again except odd 2hand which is probaly just not updated for FS correctly) so you have to make enchantment yourself.
best weapon is therefore a combinaton of enchantment and handicraft currently. no found weapon can compete with this currently. so that slot goes to crafting fully.

shield (if used)
a rare case of a tie. why? because there is 2 found shields which grant 15% one handed damage bonus. you cannot make these yourself. both are found in dangerous places (is on one of the highest level bosses in the whole game and its a mage on top)
but you can make a shield with 70% block bonus or 40% magic resist. both are great options for a highend shield. or put something else on it depending on what you need/want. neither of these options is truely better than the other.

amulet/ring.
undoubtly enchanting currently. no contest. none of the found unique loot can keep up with this. phasmalist is kind of a oddball here due them needed the amulet slot.

packback :
definitly handicraft made. so comes from crafting and exploreing (as you gotta find the recipe first tough the vagabound one recipe doesnt really qualify as that given where its found). 3rd best backpack can be found fixed inside the agnod tough. so a nice bonus for crafters but not totally unbalanced either. so this is also a nice mix currently.

armor :
currently this goes to enchanting aswell. if the % bonuses are addressed this could change. and sets could become the best choice here. given the above would not change i see no issue with the total result. the best total comes from a good mix of selfmade stuff and found stuff then. which is how it should be in any good rpg. the best stuff shouldnt be purely found NOR should it be purely crafted stuff. and the best results should come from doing a fair bit of everything. not just from 1 single skill.

forgot to add :
handicraft at 50 doesnt grant you exquisite quality on armor/weapons. where do you get that from? at 50 you have only access to FINE condition. which for armor is basically not noticable currently. same for weapons. and that is all you get. enchanting provides way more options than this at the same level and bigger benefit aswell in total for the same investment.

[Nerevar]

Opprinnelig skrevet av AggroBuLLeT:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Nerevar:

[

why on earth do you think enchanting should be better than any setitem ASWELL when its already the best for jewelery and shields and weapons? why even have setitems then in the game? WHY?

i think i already told you that, but im not sure. so ill trry again:

roleplaying.

do you honestly think i invest in enchanting because its good/bad? i do it because im a mage and enchanting makes sense for me when i play a mage character.

if i was playing a rogue/ archer i wouldnt put ANY points in enchanting AT ALL. ZERO. even if it was the best thing that ever existed. why? because for my roleplay this would make no sense. an archer who is a magic user? no. UNLESS i play arcane archer, thas another story. the same goes for warriors. i would never invest any perk, or any skills/crafting into magic related stuff. UNLESS im roleplaying a character who does use magic e.g. a seraph.

I KNOW that it would be more useful to get perks like devour soul, or reduce the arcane fever perk etc. i know all that. but it goes AGAINST my roleplay for non magic users, therefore i will never use it.

thats also why money isnt 'infinite' for me. because IM NOT investing into the bank and then sleep for 5 weeks. or kill / loot a dungeon, sleep till respawn and repeat.

so to answer your question: set items exist for people who DONT invest in enchanting or crafting at all. not everyone min maxes and tries to be the best at everything as fast as possible.

do you understand what i mean?

look, basically what you are trying to do is this : you are trying to nerf min maxers. because if you min max, you become too OP. i get that. totally understand. this is the case in EVERY SINGLE game.

the problem with that is, that people who DONT min max, who are just casualy playing the game, enjoying the story and the roleplay, get absolutely screwed over by this.

set items neeed to be strong for people who dont use enchanting. enchantment need to be strong for people who heavily invest into it. got my point?

ok ill try again aswell :

majortiy of players do not roleplay. that is simply the truth. viewing it from a roleplay perspektive is also very narrowminded aswell. as you view it from your personal entertaiment view instead of just logical number values.

out of pure curiosity: also shouldnt you be a phasmalist instead of a mage when you roleplay according to enderals lore phasmalists are the great enchanters. not mages. do i miss something here?

i dont try to nerf min maxers. i try to achieve a good balance between everything see my previous post.

yeah. sets only exist for non enchanter characters. ok i hope youre aware that that is the same argument as people in skyrim saying "YOU DONT HAVE TO LEVEL CRAFTING" aka you also dont HAVE to play the game. this is never a good argument againist number logic.

you should not end up weaker because you didnt level or use a certain skill/perk/whatever. that shouldnt happen. but it would be the case with your logic.

i cannot think of a single character build where enchanting wouldnt end up super useful currently. and this is not only because of % damage enchantments. its simply because of the slots you have available. i would still level enchantment on all my characters because its so useful overall. i would still make use of it if all % damage enchants where removed tbh. as i can instantly see the remaining use is still worth leveling it up for and investing in it. more than other crafting skills.

[Nerevar]

Opprinnelig skrevet av AggroBuLLeT:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Nerevar:

majortiy of players do not roleplay. that is simply the truth. viewing it from a roleplay perspektive is also very narrowminded aswell.

huh? are you telling me people are NOT roleplaying in an RPG ( roleplaying game ) ?
are you for real now? lol

i cant comment on the rest you said, because i honestly didnt really understand what you are trying to say.

but i understood the last part: "i cannot think of a single character build where enchanting wouldnt end up super useful currently. "

again, if you are roleplaying, you dont care if its super useful or not. if you are playing a character who hates magic, you wont use enchanting or anything magic related. its all about the roleplay.


another good roleplaying example: have you watched the Lets play of Gohper back in the day?
he never used meditation when he was in a 'dangerous' place. which was totally useless. he knew that, i knew that, everyone on youtube knew that. BUT he still did it that way, because it was AGAINST his roleplay. meditation ( e.g. sitting like a monk with their eyes closed in the middle of the road ) is simply way too dangerous.

again: from a gameplay perspective it literally doesnt matter if and where you medidate. for roleplaying it does. it destroys your immersion.

no i did not say people arent roleplaying. i simply said the majority of players who play rpgs do not roleplay.

as your idea of roleplay is to limit yourself in certain ways on purpose for immersion reasons. and that is COMPLETLY FINE. i dont care if you do that or not.

what i am trying to tell you is not that you shouldnt roleplay like that. what i am trying to explain you is that you shouldnt argue for balance based on a personal roleplay perspektive. that is never a base to stand on when argueing numbers balance. as that has nothing to do with how you personally roleplay a game.

i soloed dragons dogma for example with just my main character. i never used pawns the whole game because i didnt want to. but i would never argue that pawns should be over or underpowered because i personally played that way. as in that case i am not viewing things objectively anymore. and argueing numbers based on such a viewpoint is not a good idea if you want to achieve a decent balance for your rpg.

a good spread of skills is needed to achiev the best results. one fokus shouldnt outperform another fokus completly character wise. but currently enchanting does do this sadly. and that is what i am trying to get addressed without rendering enchantment weak or useless.

[Samantha Raven]

I tested the numbers for you, using the mana regen enchant as a exsample.

At level 100 enchantment and all the enchantment skill bonuses Mana regen with a filled grand soul gem is 31% mana regen
However this is where i think there idea of balance comes in with alchemist potion that increses enchanting by another 50 you could technicaly get 150 enchantment with that incress the stat of mana regen is then 57%.

Hope this information helps hon =)
()()
(^,^)
()(")(")

[MikeBob2013]

Thank you, Sam.

(I'm not there yet, but Enchanting is on my 'To Do' list. =p)

[Krutsi]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Nerevar:

i have no problem with enchanting beeing on about the same level as setitems. but currently enchanting is FAR ahead of them despite the nerf to it.

full skragg set stats (this includes set bonuses)

that is 7 different effects total. how many slots do you have for enchanting ? OH 7 aswell. so lets be fair and ignore the shield slot here so is only 6. so you would have to drop 1 of these 7 bonuses but you would end up with better stats in every other one of them with enchanting in its current form. on top of better damage mind you.

I'm playing twohander phasmalism user so I only have 5 slots for enchanting. So if I try to make the Skaragg set...

Gauntlets - Heavy Armor
Helmet - Apparition buff (just switching around with what I have on my ring right now as the helmet can't be enchanted with anything else useful)
Chest - Health
Boots - Stamina or Damage%
Ring - Block

Overall, even with maxed out enchanting, I'd be losing out on a bunch of health, 11% stamina regen, 10% magic resist and damage%(/stamina) in exchange for gaining a bunch of block% and some stamina(/damage%). With my current point investment I'd just be losing out on every single stat except stamina(/damage%).

Again I don't really want to make enchanting in terms of raw stats stronger at the max end than it is now. But I just find the system terribly limiting and boring as it is now. There's not really any interesting buffs and slot requirements on enchants you're not really able to customize gear that much either. Because of the practical requirement of using grand souls it's useless in the early game even if you dump all your points into it. And I'm still not seeing how having 50 points in it is of any use (or in my case my 73 points), as far as I'm concerned it's the most all or nothing of the crafting skills.

[Nerevar]

Opprinnelig skrevet av cruzz:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Nerevar:

i have no problem with enchanting beeing on about the same level as setitems. but currently enchanting is FAR ahead of them despite the nerf to it.

full skragg set stats (this includes set bonuses)

that is 7 different effects total. how many slots do you have for enchanting ? OH 7 aswell. so lets be fair and ignore the shield slot here so is only 6. so you would have to drop 1 of these 7 bonuses but you would end up with better stats in every other one of them with enchanting in its current form. on top of better damage mind you.

I'm playing twohander phasmalism user so I only have 5 slots for enchanting. So if I try to make the Skaragg set...

Gauntlets - Heavy Armor
Helmet - Apparition buff (just switching around with what I have on my ring right now as the helmet can't be enchanted with anything else useful)
Chest - Health
Boots - Stamina or Damage%
Ring - Block

Overall, even with maxed out enchanting, I'd be losing out on a bunch of health, 11% stamina regen, 10% magic resist and damage%(/stamina) in exchange for gaining a bunch of block% and some stamina(/damage%). With my current point investment I'd just be losing out on every single stat except stamina(/damage%).

Again I don't really want to make enchanting in terms of raw stats stronger at the max end than it is now. But I just find the system terribly limiting and boring as it is now. There's not really any interesting buffs and slot requirements on enchants you're not really able to customize gear that much either. Because of the practical requirement of using grand souls it's useless in the early game even if you dump all your points into it. And I'm still not seeing how having 50 points in it is of any use (or in my case my 73 points), as far as I'm concerned it's the most all or nothing of the crafting skills.

50 handicrafting is also pretty useless due to the changes to items in the recent patch (why even level it now? the gain is 10 times worse than enchanting currently just use items instead). 50 rhetorics is fairly useless overall.

50 lockpicking is also useless when scrolls exist so why do you think enchanting should be the big exception here? its fully in line with other crafting skills even when excludeing the damage % enchants. with these its actually ahead by a long shot at 50 points compared to the other 5. none of the crafting skills shine until you get them really high. and some are useless even then.

so this is really not something you argue on in generel as you would have to apply that logic for all other crafting skils too and then enchantment issues would just become even more apparent. you dont just look at 1 single skill and judge its balance on it. you must compare it aswell.

youre again grasping for straws here.

first off. you said it so yourself : youre using a 2hander.

why on earth would you enchant your ring with block in such a case? the block enchantment clearly says its only for SHIELDS. this bonus is worthless without a shield. so of course its the one you drop. prefering that over magic resist is absolutly silly aswell as magic resist is way more useful of an effect compared.

of course you also enchant boots and gloves with damage % currently. same for ring. you dont need stamina when you oneshot everything with 1 attack. what for? to run longer?

what you fail to see is most of the set effects are only useful if youre not doing insane damage trough enchantment. if youre doing that they are not needed anymore. loseing them doesnt matter. youre still more effective overall compared to the set. sure its more one sided effects wise but its still far far stronger in total power. just with less effects.

haveing alot of weak effects doesnt make a set good compared to 1 powerful enchant instead.
for example if enchantment single effects where as weak as set effects i could see dual effect happening for enderal. but definitly not with thier current power level.

aslong as the potion and the % effects are allowed like currently enchanting is unmatched. sets pale compared to it already at lvl 15-20. so until something is done about that any changes to enchanting would end up horrible for certain. so gotta wait for awhile.