Dutch Revolution

[Deni]

Dutch revolution as SouthAftican is not a good thing in game. Southaftican revolution should be removed or to be removed only one card that gives units HP.
After short period of time all southafrican units get more HP, cavalary got over 1k HP, halberdies got 800 HP and all this in 30 mins after TR 60 ends.
This is most worst card. Units got overpowered with HP and it is not possible to play against it. I hope someone will see this and really think about this.

[Catalytic]

You have to really stack up a long time for Wanderlust to get to such a point. I've played games against an AI Dutch opponent that did that. I'll agree, it's an absolute slog to try and break through, but it can be done. You may need to think about alternative tactics.

First, you've got to get that economy down. Dutch economy is a heavily passive economy. It's dependent on buildings. So, think mortars behind your line and slow push him in, or get around behind him and go to work. This may be cavalry raids on his villagers (less effective), or waves of petards. The factories can't be replaced, so they're absolute priorities. After that, get his banks. He'll likely be cannon spamming in addition to the halberds. It's a very gold-intensive army. If he's got estates, take them out. 800w cost to rebuild vs 2 petards (100f, 200w). He'll rebuild them, but then he has to task his factories on wood instead of on gold and lets you deplete his reserve on the front line. If you're really ambitious, try for his TCs, though that'll take a lot more petards. I've found much better luck with: factory > estates > towers > mills > banks (you'll need 4 petards vs 2, which is why they're lower priority).

The South African revolution is good, for sure, but again, it can be beaten. Just be persistent and don't be afraid to think outside the box. Bait his army one way, then trash his economy.

[NegevGlobal]

It can be beaten, but in those 4v4s it can be quite handy in breaking stalemates that start going beyond 2 hours. Aside from that its difficult for a Dutch player to get the cards they need before revolting as it requires at least 14 cards, if not 18 tops, to play comfortably after they revolt and not handicap themselves.

That's a massive, and I do mean massive, window in a game especially when others will simply go to Imp and easily outeco you and outtrade.

[No Guts No Glory]

Are you really complaining that Wanderlust might result in strong units after 90 MINUTES?!

Who would have thought?!

Seriously lmao

[Catalytic]

Publicado originalmente por No Guts No Glory:

Are you really complaining that Wanderlust might result in strong units after 90 MINUTES?!

Who would have thought?!

Seriously lmao

It's a fair question.

I played a 3 hour marathon with Brits -> S. Africa in which I had boosted my hussars to nearly 1500 hps (normal imperial ones are ~760ish). The AI was still sending wave after wave of cannons protected by nothing but anti-cav. 2-3 of them would mass up 20+ cannons behind a line of halberds and musketeers. I had skirms ready for them, but I had to micro them to maintain range because the second the cannons got into range, they'd get obliterated. So, the strategy was 4-5 falconets or culvs + my skirms to take out the infantry wave while the cav had to get back behind and kill the cannons, which were being spawned effectively non-stop in batches of 5. And the AI micros them.

Keep in mind that with the revolution, you don't get the +50% attack from the imperial upgrades, so your countering must be perfect. Stalemates are real.

That last part is important because the Revolution is a strategic choice. You get your initial wave of revolutionaries, but then, you have to play at a disadvantage the rest of the game. The revolutionary units and mechanics need to be such that you offset some of that risk.

Any of the infinite spawning revolutions go a long way to helping mitigate that risk. S. Africa's wanderlust gives infinite +5% hp. Indonesia gets an additional Sufi elephant (~750ish hps) which can become a very large shipment. Haiti can get infinite TCs which auto-spawn pirates, and Brazil gets a similar mechanic that auto-spawns its Voluntario da Patria revolutionaries in batches. These can be quite powerful because it's infinite spawning constant pressure. However, like any infinitely stacking mechanic, mathematically, they get to a point where they're overwhelming of the rest of the balance in the game. 30 war elephants coming out every shipment in a slog where I'm constantly getting new shipments means I can dump tens of thousands of hps of units in your town all outside of the pop cap that you must deal with. It's crushing. 1500 hps cavalry and falconets with more hps than your heavy cannons are a big problem. Even with the tower or fort infinite cards, you could potentially cover the map with the things. I've seen people create walls of blockhouses, for example.

The question is: should there be a hard cap, or is the soft cap of the shipment mechanic (you only get so many of them so fast) enough? And secondarily, should such mechanics be expanded to other revolutions in a revamp to try and make them more interesting?

[No Guts No Glory]

Publicado originalmente por Catalytic:

Publicado originalmente por No Guts No Glory:

Are you really complaining that Wanderlust might result in strong units after 90 MINUTES?!

Who would have thought?!

Seriously lmao

It's a fair question.

I played a 3 hour marathon with Brits -> S. Africa in which I had boosted my hussars to nearly 1500 hps (normal imperial ones are ~760ish). The AI was still sending wave after wave of cannons protected by nothing but anti-cav. 2-3 of them would mass up 20+ cannons behind a line of halberds and musketeers. I had skirms ready for them, but I had to micro them to maintain range because the second the cannons got into range, they'd get obliterated. So, the strategy was 4-5 falconets or culvs + my skirms to take out the infantry wave while the cav had to get back behind and kill the cannons, which were being spawned effectively non-stop in batches of 5. And the AI micros them.

Keep in mind that with the revolution, you don't get the +50% attack from the imperial upgrades, so your countering must be perfect. Stalemates are real.

That last part is important because the Revolution is a strategic choice. You get your initial wave of revolutionaries, but then, you have to play at a disadvantage the rest of the game. The revolutionary units and mechanics need to be such that you offset some of that risk.

Any of the infinite spawning revolutions go a long way to helping mitigate that risk. S. Africa's wanderlust gives infinite +5% hp. Indonesia gets an additional Sufi elephant (~750ish hps) which can become a very large shipment. Haiti can get infinite TCs which auto-spawn pirates, and Brazil gets a similar mechanic that auto-spawns its Voluntario da Patria revolutionaries in batches. These can be quite powerful because it's infinite spawning constant pressure. However, like any infinitely stacking mechanic, mathematically, they get to a point where they're overwhelming of the rest of the balance in the game. 30 war elephants coming out every shipment in a slog where I'm constantly getting new shipments means I can dump tens of thousands of hps of units in your town all outside of the pop cap that you must deal with. It's crushing. 1500 hps cavalry and falconets with more hps than your heavy cannons are a big problem. Even with the tower or fort infinite cards, you could potentially cover the map with the things. I've seen people create walls of blockhouses, for example.

The question is: should there be a hard cap, or is the soft cap of the shipment mechanic (you only get so many of them so fast) enough? And secondarily, should such mechanics be expanded to other revolutions in a revamp to try and make them more interesting?

Lmao, just no. Its not serious question at all. If you are playing 60 minute treaty and then 30 minutes more, dont complain.

I can legit get cav to 1000+ HP as France in 20 minutes, should it be nerfed too lmao?

For real, when you are playing game in a wrong way, congratulate yourself and stop complaining about mechanic.

Lets ignore the fact that shipments are really expensive the more you send. You also had 60 minutes to boom in peace and you are telling me you didnt managed to end the game in 30 minutes after it ended? Really?

[covok48]

Publicado originalmente por Deni:

Dutch revolution as SouthAftican is not a good thing in game. Southaftican revolution should be removed or to be removed only one card that gives units HP.
After short period of time all southafrican units get more HP, cavalary got over 1k HP, halberdies got 800 HP and all this in 30 mins after TR 60 ends.
This is most worst card. Units got overpowered with HP and it is not possible to play against it. I hope someone will see this and really think about this.

No. They are not going to remove it.

Deal.

[Catalytic]

Publicado originalmente por No Guts No Glory:

Lmao, just no. Its not serious question at all. If you are playing 60 minute treaty and then 30 minutes more, dont complain.

I can legit get cav to 1000+ HP as France in 20 minutes, should it be nerfed too lmao?

For real, when you are playing game in a wrong way, congratulate yourself and stop complaining about mechanic.

Lets ignore the fact that shipments are really expensive the more you send. You also had 60 minutes to boom in peace and you are telling me you didnt managed to end the game in 30 minutes after it ended? Really?

It is a serious question. You just can't seem to bother to evaluate it seriously. First, don't make assumptions. I don't play treaty. Nor do I play competitive multiplayer of any sort. I'm not here trying to get the devs to give me a cheese mechanic I can exploit. Stow that assumption. It's wrong.

Did you read my previous commentary in this thread? If you had, you'd realize, I've already pointed out major limiting factors on the claim. I already mentioned that this represents a very long game the OP had played and requires a very high number of shipments. I also mentioned that you're still stuck with Age 4 attack values on those units, despite the increasing hps.

Instead of actually discussing the mechanic, you trolled, and asserted I was playing the game "the wrong way." Unless I'm cheating, there is no "wrong way." It is within the game's rules to do this. The issue is whether this should be in the rules or if it shouldn't. Again, all I'm interested in is a discussion of game mechanics here, specifically: finite vs infinite scaling.

Want to try again? Do you think such infinite scaling mechanisms should be in the game?

[No Guts No Glory]

Publicado originalmente por Catalytic:

Publicado originalmente por No Guts No Glory:

Lmao, just no. Its not serious question at all. If you are playing 60 minute treaty and then 30 minutes more, dont complain.

I can legit get cav to 1000+ HP as France in 20 minutes, should it be nerfed too lmao?

For real, when you are playing game in a wrong way, congratulate yourself and stop complaining about mechanic.

Lets ignore the fact that shipments are really expensive the more you send. You also had 60 minutes to boom in peace and you are telling me you didnt managed to end the game in 30 minutes after it ended? Really?

It is a serious question. You just can't seem to bother to evaluate it seriously. First, don't make assumptions. I don't play treaty. Nor do I play competitive multiplayer of any sort. I'm not here trying to get the devs to give me a cheese mechanic I can exploit. Stow that assumption. It's wrong.

Did you read my previous commentary in this thread? If you had, you'd realize, I've already pointed out major limiting factors on the claim. I already mentioned that this represents a very long game the OP had played and requires a very high number of shipments. I also mentioned that you're still stuck with Age 4 attack values on those units, despite the increasing hps.

Instead of actually discussing the mechanic, you trolled, and asserted I was playing the game "the wrong way." Unless I'm cheating, there is no "wrong way." It is within the game's rules to do this. The issue is whether this should be in the rules or if it shouldn't. Again, all I'm interested in is a discussion of game mechanics here, specifically: finite vs infinite scaling.

Want to try again? Do you think such infinite scaling mechanisms should be in the game?

Yeah i do think its completely okay and anyone complaining about it is borderline braindead specimen.

And yeah, i will keep saying that if you are playing 90+ minutes games and you dare to complain about XYZ stat being to high, then you need to go see a doctor. Doesnt matter who is complaining, the whole complaint is just stupid. So no, the whole question is not serious in the slightest. Its not abusable unless allowed in basically lab condition and its not widespread mechanic either. This whole post is just one big pile of screaming by someone who has no clue how the game works.

[MrHero23]

I think I kicked no guts no glory's ass once in a 60min once

[No Guts No Glory]

Publicado originalmente por MrHero23:

I think I kicked no guts no glory's ass once in a 60min once

Hardly given i dont play treaty lmao

[Jonasnee]

south african revolt is simply not as strong as not revolting, sure in theory if you can boom for 90 minutes and then fight for 2 hours it will eventually take over, but there isnt a realistic application for it in say 40 minutes treaty, a good player will overcome you.