Update: Italians has been butchered.

[[BRE] Léonard "le Fol"]

Feels that DLC after all are just marketing techniques to sell stuff that is powerful and then you reduce it's power to make it just another average civ.
Also, now meta of a civ has totally changed, and one has to spend new hours (forced grind, this is not respectful) to actually learn how to use the civ compared to others (that also have changed).

This RTS politique is just disrespectful to player time and effort.
Changing the meta forever means forced grind and work for players instead to enjoy the game.
This is the perfect design for offline casual players that do not have time limits to spend on the game nor care much for the competition.

Once you change the game you keep that meta like that forever, a RTS cannot change infinitely.
This is not ok.

The game misses tons of basic things also like "online status" of players not to say an historic chronology of games we have taken in ranked (or what not) and that stay published with also basic data like aging times, units numbers, vills made etc. Like Eloratingjpcommunity or dori did both... now misteriously removed both.

Italians are now a totally different civ.
The game changes and now we have to learn again all over again, and all the videos posted online become basically obsolete.

This is what production managers tell you. I don't find this a respectful politics, just good for making money, that's for sure.

---
"Positives"? The civs seem alive like this and constanly moving like they were alive but this is sort of true for "role playing"\ imaginative type of players like me, however I don't need this.

Meta changing makes gaming with RTS more like work than playing games, learning curve has to have a limit.

Tell this to whoever is behind this at T. games and Forgotten empires and Xbox Games studios, you are really getting out of the road.

[ALOIS]

Je suis totalement d'accord.

En ayant rejoué les Italiens après le dernier patch, je les trouve carrément désavantagées par rapport aux autres civilisations européennes !

Leur économie ne rivalise pas du tout avec les autres civilisations et pire encore, leurs troupes sont bien trop faiblardes en late game.

D'accord, je le reconnais pour les avoir joués, ils étaient complètement abusés lorsque je terminais des parties en mode rush et qu'au pire des cas, pour les parties les plus avancés où je ne dépassais pas l'âge IV. Les Pavoisiers bénéficiaient de mécanique de dégâts et de résistance assez intéressante, mais il ne faut pas oublier qu'ils coûtent assez cher en bois. Arrivé à l'âge IV, ils sont obsolètes même avec les 2 cartes qui améliorent leur HP et leur dégât. Mais pourquoi n'ont-ils pas d'améliorations jusqu'au rang impérial ??? C'était pourtant bien spécifier dans le patch, et pourtant, ils ne peuvent être améliorés qu'au rang vétéran au max.

De plus, pourquoi leurs maisons lombardes ont-elles étaient nerf ? Est-ce trop puissant par rapport aux banques néerlandaises que l'on peut avoir en bien plus grand nombre et qui sont bien plus performantes ?! L'économie des Suédois est complètement broken depuis le début du jeu, même si elle a subi quelques nerfs, elle est aujourd'hui la plus performante du jeu, vous pouvez rincer vos adversaires en début de game comme en traité...

Quel est le but de rendre injouable, pire, de ne pas appliquer correctement les correctifs du patch à certaines civilisations.

Quel est le but ? De rendre injouable une civilisation ? Pourquoi ne pas apporter plus de spécifié à cette civilisation comme à celles pourtant présente dès l'achat du jeu ?

Les carabinieri ne peuvent toujours pas être formés dans les écuries alors qu'ils sont disponibles auprès de la basilique.

Pourquoi on ne peut pas entraîner plus de troupes dans les basiliques et ceux plus rapidement ?

Où est la révolution italienne ? Il y a pourtant bien une carte qui s'appelle bien Garibali, on peut avoir 50 tuniques rouges (alors que ça devrait être traduit en "chemise rouges"), mais c'est tout !

Pourquoi une civilisation qui n'est pas accessible dans le jeu de base, et qui s'obtient dans un DLC payant, devient complètement à l'abandon quelques mois après ça sorti en jeu ?

[ALOIS]

English version :

I totally agree.

Having replayed the Italians after the last patch, I find them downright disadvantaged compared to other European civilizations!

Their economy does not compete at all with other civilizations and even worse, their troops are far too weak in the late game.

Ok, I admit it for having played them, they were completely abused when I finished games in rush mode and only in the worst case, for the most advanced games where I did not exceed age IV. The Pavoisiers benefited from fairly interesting damage and resistance mechanics, but we must not forget that they are quite expensive in wood. Arrived at age IV, they are obsolete even with the 2 cards which improve their HP and their damage. But why don't they have upgrades up to Imperial rank??? It was specified in the patch, however, and yet they can only be upgraded to veteran rank at the max.

Moreover, why were their Lombard houses nerfed? Is it too powerful compared to the Dutch banks which one can have in much greater number and which are much more powerful?! The Swedish economy has been completely broken since the start of the game, even if it has undergone some nerves, it is now the most efficient in the game, you can rinse your opponents at the start of the game as in treaty...

What is the purpose of making it unplayable, worse, not properly applying patch fixes to certain civs.

What is the point? To make a civilization unplayable? Why not bring more specificity to this civilization as to those yet present from the purchase of the game?

Carabinieri still cannot be trained in stables while they are available from the basilica.

Why can't we train more troops in the basilicas and those more quickly?

Where is the Italian Revolution? There is, however, a card called Garibali, you can have 50 red coats (when it should be translated as "red shirt"), but that's it!


Why does a civilization that is not accessible in the base game, and which is obtained in a paid DLC, become completely abandoned a few months after it was released in game?

[Torimeister]

Every pro tournament last 2 months and Italy is always banned, I wonder why. Anyway the more civs the harder it is to balance the game. Let the pros give unput to the devs not us noobs about balance

[James3157]

Originally posted by Tyler Durden:

Every pro tournament last 2 months and Italy is always banned, I wonder why. Anyway the more civs the harder it is to balance the game. Let the pros give unput to the devs not us noobs about balance

You do realize right that the pros will need to relearn the Italian civilization as well? I only played as the Italian civilization once from a skirmish before the update and overall I seemed to like them. Not to mention that Knights of Mediterranean is a dlc that costs extra money and not everyone necessarily plays multiplayer either. Is nerfing the Italians worth it even at the expense of possibly lowering this dlc's ratings (which is currently at 90% positive, but nerfing Italians seems like a compromise that might lower its ratings) on Steam as as consequence of this? True that this dlc is only 10 U.S dollars and quite reasonable as well for anyone that lives in a first world country, but Italians being nerfed potentially might also hurt the dlc's ratings at the same time.

[pope henry viii]

As a primarily offline casual player, I am generally happy with their approach.

You are contradicting yourself with the comment about content being a short-term cash grab to be followed by nerfs - because that is relevant only to online players who want to pay to win.

Balancing a game solely around 'professional' players or high level competitive play is a bad idea. It reduces the fun of the experience for people who are not 'professionals' or in the minority of highly-skilled competitive players and creates a cultural focus on winning. That is what makes a game feel like work.

You can make your own decisions about how to enjoy the game. If you want to be a win-obsessed metaslave, you suffer the inherent consequences.

[James3157]

Originally posted by pope henry viii:

As a primarily offline casual player, I am generally happy with their approach.

You are contradicting yourself with the comment about content being a short-term cash grab do be followed by nerfs - because that is relevant only to online players who want to pay to win.

Balancing a game solely around 'professional' players or high level competitive play is a bad idea. It reduces the fun of the experience for people who are not 'professionals' or in the minority of highly-skilled competitive players and creates a cultural focus on winning. That is what makes a game feel like work.

You can make your own decisions about how to enjoy the game. If you want to be a win-obsessed metaslave, you suffer the inherent consequences.

What is your point across? That nerfing is a good thing or a bad thing? Nerfing is not necessarily always a good thing and especially for paid dlc. That is coming from someone who is not even a pro at this game yet and has never played multiplayer either. I do not see it from a perspective of Italians necessarily being pay to win before the nerf, but just simply that some people do not like change regardless of whether that player is a pro or a noob especially when considering the fact that perhaps some people thought that the Italians were fine for about a year up until this update.

[pope henry viii]

My point is that you could decide to have some fun figuring out how to get the Italians to work to your satisfaction post-nerf.

[Catalytic]

I honestly don't understand what the crying is about here. What did they actually change that's breaking Italy so badly that people are losing their minds on the forums complaining that the world's going to end? All I'm seeing is 3 OP cards that got nerfed and an exploited mechanic that got a reasonable cap applied to prevent cheese.

[.:Jj:.]

Originally posted by Catalytic:

I honestly don't understand what the crying is about here. What did they actually change that's breaking Italy so badly that people are losing their minds on the forums complaining that the world's going to end? All I'm seeing is 3 OP cards that got nerfed and an exploited mechanic that got a reasonable cap applied to prevent cheese.

About nothing. Nothing unusual at least. It's a normal thing for games with a competitive aspect, that are actively supported, to receive updates that constantly change and shift the power structure and shuffle available content in many ways- some civilizations are being buffed, some nerfed, some technologies added or removed, abilities changed or replaced.

Italy here is far less sacred than for example China in AoE2(DE), and if that one can be tinkered with- Italy can be too.

[[BRE] Léonard "le Fol"]

Originally posted by pope henry viii:

My point is that you could decide to have some fun figuring out how to get the Italians to work to your satisfaction post-nerf.

I don't think in general some post do a great service posting marketing perspective on this.. The focus is more on exploitation of players and sorta populism of game updates...
I strongly noticed anyway this game is targeting players that are super casual sort of "The sims" players not the RTS player that loves strategy and history and competing in PvP... like sort of sports mixed with knowledge and creativity. No .. more like City builder approach. I strongly oppose this shift of the game... Sure they can come play but the game must remain a PvP game with all the connected services that the game UI QoL developers must offer, which sure, includes also balancing civs.

Noticing on a web site I see anyway at High level games with italy still bring to the win most players. while other levels generally are having issues winning.
China UK Lakota, Haudenosaunee, Inca ,Germans, india, (source:https://aoe3explorer.com/grid ) .. now also malta.. why malta fire throwing madness hasn't been nerfed?!! No.. actually Maltese have received additional buffs and "rebalancing"...

Ok.. so some civs are broken? The thing is that all this just has to be seen in a global way, it can't be seen "one civ is broken", and sure actions must be taken on each... depending on how players DISCOVER how one civ is used. For example India is scary, you often can't stop it.

I don't have fun nor relax myself watching my units gathering resources for minutes, hours, or organizing a battle and a conflict in a Strategy game, like even chess, just to watch stuff moving in front of me. For me there is no relaxation in wasting time. Sure, I might be dopamine dependent, but guess what, we all are looking for it.
I do like to compete and especially cooperate and improve myself in the strategy, not need to use my eyes in front of a screen. This said... Avoid the off topic please.

The constant resetting of stuff isn't cool.

I noticed that of my decks pushed to IV now the ones more calm, as Lion Heart advised in a video of 3 days ago, will run better.
These advises and shortcut helpful understandings come from people that know well howto play the game and how stuff work. This is the bread and butter of RTS. Understanding the game and the various "energies" that each civ has especially in a relative way (aka compared to others and conditions changing).

Italy will need a lighter dwelling into II and especially III and not aim at a 10 minutes IV age, because you will need a Masonry\illuminati card that makes the towers possible and not only 5 architects, not achievable anymore, and also not only the Free fortress upgrade which leads to stronger walls, and towers (which is 2 cards + conditions not achievalbe anymore.. so what they nerfed is basically 1 interpretation of Italy which was disliked and so they praised the mass..

Sure Italy not being accepted in Tournaments (I partially did not know that, but I heard it and also saw it on me in general games) etc means also a negative marketing effect on the DLC and italians so it's better to make them acceptable (100% now they will be accepted so this means good news for italy in general)... And people should stop talking of "lamerism" if one uses them.

I won my games also because I run Italy, and yes.. u need experience on how to use them just like one needs experience for super mega specific civs like ♥♥♥♥ or others that have very cool and "the game in the gmae" functionality.

What is best for italy is being able to play with the energies and powers it has, so the xp generation, the fast gathering of 1 resource and putting it on the rest... their mercs, their good cooperation with other civs due to the large plethora of units u can put on the field...
And also very unique Extra \ suprise strategies (several of them which players have yet to reveal and discover and make "commercial)....

You will see what will come.

Anyway, I strongly disagree with this "Games as a service" pratice. They don't even have a functioning lobby mask\UI, I mean I press "Rank" on the top and the games are not EVEN ORDERING BY RANK! In 2023 , in what is called a definitive edition, while it's instead a pure REMAKE of t he game, is like don't let me say it, but a true disrespect to players!

The lobby that when I wishper asks me to go click the window of the user I wanted to wishper and then also click over the text box in order to start typing! It's torture!

When in post game we can't watch the post game together and type! No we have to go in a specific chat window that covers all the post game or go to the "View map": only there u can watch messages written! So you can't actually talk while in post game unless u are on external chat tools... COME ON! 2023 definitive edition. another fail.

This game does updates but is using casual and super new to RTS and AOE developers and programmer artist lead that have zero understanding but making more money for the producer. This is a real disgrace.

You can "nerf" or change as you want but keep an ethical approach to gaming, and also... I am not contradicting at all.

Yes I agree that now one will need to find new ways to play them but there is quite disadvantage as cards have been strongly nerfed too...
Now the basilica becomes sort of an important target for the opponent, so should or could be defended with walls... and also probably the Venetian Arsenal that speeds up 60% stuff that is built near it for quick popping of units, well... this too could be more important for creating advantage against the enemy..

There are several ROADS that one can take, the turtling was a big excuse to butcher it.

Fortunately this service has been brought back from hellpunch in cooperation also with dori , so now we have again back the information we had to have.. also you can learn more how to play the game by finding a way to watch pro players as the system tells you when those pros are playing and what they are playing.
My problem is finding a way to understand how to watch them as there is no way but to contact them directly.

Let's hope only cheesy stuff has been nerfed...

In the mean while I had to change the decks I was using. I really hope this changes to italy and other civs will also actually benefit Italy, however what I have been "Crying" about is an actual attitude games tend to have in order to keep on deleting the achievements on the steep curve of learning and keep on reseting that climbing to zero so that one needs to spend more time to get back to what one had.

I really hope this doesn't get constantly happening and this thing of "new civ" stops... do maybe one more free package but stop this otherwise we are doomed to constant adding of stuff constant changes constant learning curve deletion.

[[deleted]]

Italy S++ tier to A tier at worst

only weak whiners call it "butchered"

[Babalele]

Italy is not broken anymore boo hoo I can't mono comp Shotels as Ethiopia anymore boooo waaaaah waaaah

Though I agree that all these nerfs at once seem a bit too much, they could have at least moved bersaglieri to Age 3!!

[Froz7y]

AI is still dumb tho.. all gang up one allied AI and become retarded.

[James3157]

Originally posted by Frosty return to Ape:

AI is still dumb tho.. all gang up one allied AI and become retarded.

The Italians are not dumb necessarily if you play as them as opposed to the Italians being AI.

[AZTEC]

LOL learn to play noobs. IN this patch everything get nerfs except japan. and no one say a ♥♥♥♥, why do italy can be an exception, and what is your rank.