Unknown fate?

[MilanoKano]

So I'm in the September phase of the saga and during my sleep, apparently one of my pups had "gone off and met an unknown fate". I didn't get any achievement for a lost pup (I've never lost one before so I'm sure it wasn't that). I'm not entirely sure if this is just some random curveball from the game or if it was something I did to make that pup suddenly die. Does anybody know what this is?

[Loach]

This topic has been moved to the PUBLIC BETA DISCUSSION section, as it is about a public beta build, not an early access version.

[addiemaye]

I experienced this exact same problem. I was in the Growing Pups stage, had my pups outside the grass and had just finished feeding them. All full health. Next moment, it says my pup was gone and met an unknown fate. I think it's a mechanism to make sure if you're doing good-- that you're still going to face difficulty. I tried the same game 2 times and both times the same pup had gotten lost. I think it's just trying to make sure not ALL your pups survive and give you maximum realism.

[Depressed_Cat]

Originally posted by addiemaye:

I experienced this exact same problem. I was in the Growing Pups stage, had my pups outside the grass and had just finished feeding them. All full health. Next moment, it says my pup was gone and met an unknown fate. I think it's a mechanism to make sure if you're doing good-- that you're still going to face difficulty. I tried the same game 2 times and both times the same pup had gotten lost. I think it's just trying to make sure not ALL your pups survive and give you maximum realism.

If that's the case that doesn't seem very fair in all honesty... I don't think the devs would do that- at least I hope not.

I play in challenging and I got my litter of 5 to the Growing Pups quest without that happening.

I know pups don't immediately go to sleep when you do, so maybe it's possible they wandered off just as you went to sleep.

[addiemaye]

Originally posted by Depressed_Cat:

Originally posted by addiemaye:

I experienced this exact same problem. I was in the Growing Pups stage, had my pups outside the grass and had just finished feeding them. All full health. Next moment, it says my pup was gone and met an unknown fate. I think it's a mechanism to make sure if you're doing good-- that you're still going to face difficulty. I tried the same game 2 times and both times the same pup had gotten lost. I think it's just trying to make sure not ALL your pups survive and give you maximum realism.

If that's the case that doesn't seem very fair in all honesty... I don't think the devs would do that- at least I hope not.

I play in challenging and I got my litter of 5 to the Growing Pups quest without that happening.

I know pups don't immediately go to sleep when you do, so maybe it's possible they wandered off just as you went to sleep.

Yeah I played in challenging with 6 and one randomly just wandered off and died-- I hope that isn't the case either, but I'm going to continue playing and just accept it. Maybe when there's more discussion about it we can get some better insight-- I was a bit distraught because I was doing really good up to that point. I'd honestly feel bad if my pups just wandered off while I was sleeping-- cause not going to lie, I don't think that would happen really? I've been away from the den for a while and my mate would stay at home with the pups, and there's usually no issues with wandering.

I've had some when my affinity is really low-- especially with a certain pup, but I'm slightly concerned if this is a bug or just an in-game mechanic because I've never had this issue before in my game plays. Thanks for sharing! I wish you luck on your Growing Pups quest! Glad to see there is another challenging enjoyer

[cutecabaret]

This is connected to the Sick Pup Death setting, and yeah, it's a way for the devs to ensure your whole litter doesn't survive, for both performance and realism reasons. This is intentional by design.

[Depressed_Cat]

Originally posted by cutecabaret:

This is connected to the Sick Pup Death setting, and yeah, it's a way for the devs to ensure your whole litter doesn't survive, for both performance and realism reasons. This is intentional by design.

By connected do you mean it only happens when that setting is on or off?

[cutecabaret]

I am pretty sure it only happens when the setting is on but I'm not 100% sure. I play with the setting on and so far haven't had it happen OR had any sickness yet on my first litter but I intentionally want the hardship of pup death.

[Depressed_Cat]

Originally posted by cutecabaret:

I am pretty sure it only happens when the setting is on but I'm not 100% sure. I play with the setting on and so far haven't had it happen OR had any sickness yet on my first litter but I intentionally want the hardship of pup death.

Well based on the fact that I had a moderately sized litter with no deaths and it didn't happen to me, I would assume that it doesn't happen with the setting off. The setting is there for players like me who don't like having no control over pup deaths anyway.

[MilanoKano]

It makes sense that the devs would put the mechanic in there for crowd control but I also agree that it doesn't seem entirely fair. While yes, I would like to have realism, I also don't want any unnecessary deaths. I've developed a habit that I will call my pack by barking to get close so we can all sleep close by each other. It just so happens that the first time I didn't do this in a while, a pup managed to get lost and die. My main point is that I'd prefer if a pup wandered off, it would be apart of player error instead of a random chance since that seems a bit uncalled for if you're doing well enough.

[Rex Procellis]

Originally posted by MilanoKano:

It makes sense that the devs would put the mechanic in there for crowd control but I also agree that it doesn't seem entirely fair. While yes, I would like to have realism, I also don't want any unnecessary deaths. I've developed a habit that I will call my pack by barking to get close so we can all sleep close by each other. It just so happens that the first time I didn't do this in a while, a pup managed to get lost and die. My main point is that I'd prefer if a pup wandered off, it would be apart of player error instead of a random chance since that seems a bit uncalled for if you're doing well enough.

100% agree with you. I've been a very good parent to my pups, and I've also been very lucky with my rendezvous spot being near herds. I'd prefer it to be player error entirely rather than just random happenstance.

The pup I had that was 'marked' to wander off was one I'd been fighting to keep alive in the first place. For some reason predators always went for him even if others were outside of the grass. I recognize that life in the wild is hardly fair, but this felt like a kick in the face.

[Loach]

Pups meeting an unknown fate is chance based, and as cutecabaret said, is something that is controlled by the Sick Pups Can Die toggle (though it only affects pups born next litter when you turn that off).

[crys]

Originally posted by Loach:

Pups meeting an unknown fate is chance based, and as cutecabaret said, is something that is controlled by the Sick Pups Can Die toggle (though it only affects pups born next litter when you turn that off).

I just had a puppy meet an unknown fate and I do not have the sick pups can die toggled off. I sent a bug report because if what you say is correct that should not have been able to happen.

[Loach]

Sick pups can die only applies to the next litter after changing that option. If you're having that happen on a litter that was alive when you changed it that's intentional. Not meant to be able to cheese it with the toggle.

If you turned it off before they were born and they're still getting that fate, that is a bug and you need to report it.

Unknown fate may be frustrating but compared to what was in private builds, it's a lot gentler and nicer about controlling pack size (along with dispersal). In private beta tests we had what was called fatal sickness which would kill a pup within 2 minutes after they got sick. A single tester like this, so things were changed where it is right now with more dangerous predators, vulnerable sick pups to predators, And when you have big litters and big packs, an unknown fate may befall them instead, of which those more classic leaning RNG deaths can be toggled with the Sick Pups Can Die setting.

Which is why when you turn it off litters get smaller. You are essentially turning off part of what controls your pack size year to year, leaving only one to pull the weight, and as such the game adjusts accordingly by giving you less pups overall to balance all of that.

I personally think had WQ planned saga from the start we never would've gotten litters as big as we did due to this, but I'm happy it's here as an option so that you can opt in to a gauntlet and see how well you and your pups fare. Of all methods you can have a pup die only 2 are RNG and that's pretty generous IMHO. So it's a fair compromise, one more in the players favor, all things considered.

[crys]

Originally posted by Loach:

Sick pups can die only applies to the next litter after changing that option. If you're having that happen on a litter that was alive when you changed it that's intentional. Not meant to be able to cheese it with the toggle.

If you turned it off before they were born and they're still getting that fate, that is a bug and you need to report it.

Unknown fate may be frustrating but compared to what was in private builds, it's a lot gentler and nicer about controlling pack size (along with dispersal). In private beta tests we had what was called fatal sickness which would kill a pup within 2 minutes after they got sick. A single tester like this, so things were changed where it is right now with more dangerous predators, vulnerable sick pups to predators, And when you have big litters and big packs, an unknown fate may befall them instead, of which those more classic leaning RNG deaths can be toggled with the Sick Pups Can Die setting.

Which is why when you turn it off litters get smaller. You are essentially turning off part of what controls your pack size year to year, leaving only one to pull the weight, and as such the game adjusts accordingly by giving you less pups overall to balance all of that.

I personally think had WQ planned saga from the start we never would've gotten litters as big as we did due to this, but I'm happy it's here as an option so that you can opt in to a gauntlet and see how well you and your pups fare. Of all methods you can have a pup die only 2 are RNG and that's pretty generous IMHO. So it's a fair compromise, one more in the players favor, all things considered.

I have no problem with pups dying from sickness so I've never touched the toggle. I thought it was only a thing if we didn't allow our pups to die from sickness.
I guess I didn't word my first response properly, mate permadeath is on; pup death to sickness is on. I haven't turned either one of these settings off.

[cutecabaret]

So, for me, the issue is not pups dying of sickness and unknown causes, specifically BECAUSE they gave us a toggle. That's a great solution and the tradeoff of smaller litters is acceptable to me - I opted into random deaths. I'm prepared for it.

My issue is that these pups aren't actually random - they are predetermined. I don't know exactly when the game determines which specific pups are predestined to die of either sickness or unknown causes, but it is predetermined, because you can reload saves over and over again and the same specific pups always die. Actually, no, it still IS rng...it's just that the rng is determined well in advance, when I feel like it should be rolled closer to the actual event, if that makes sense.

Because right now, what annoys me is that sitting with a sick pup who survives their illness only to die of unnatural causes means you wasted time on a pup that was doomed from the start and on the flip side, means that there really is no reason at all to bother sitting with a sick pup at all because it was already destined to survive or not way before you ever got to this point of the game anyway. It makes the entire "sit with a sick pup to have a better chance of curing their illness" useless if that pup is already determined to die later on of the unknown causes.

For the record, I want random deaths. I opted into it. But I want them to be randomized much less in advance - I know that this is probably specifically to prevent savescumming favorite pups dying vs ones we don't care about as much, but to that I say...why does that matter in a single player game? If somebody is really upset about the concept of random deaths at all, they can just toggle it off from the start. I'm more upset that the RNG doesn't actually FEEL random if it's all predetermined.