Why you should just turn off 'Pup RNG Deaths' completely!

[KimoKitten]

So since the saga has come out I have put several hours into the game over multiple saves as well as my girlfriend has done so, we discovered a pretty telling (likely intentional) flaw in how the game handles pup deaths. No matter how hard or well you play, you will almost always come out of the saga and into the new year with around 4-5 pups. Why is this?

Well the game has an artificial system in, maximum litter size in the game with Pup RNG Deaths on 'All Types' is 7. Even if no predators get your pups and all of them manage to recover from sicknesses (thanks to the Youthful Prowess perk this is very easy to do). The game will take out at least 1-2 pups anyways with 'unknown fates'.

So at this point, unless you enjoy seeing your pups be taken from you for zero reason because of a built in game design that will just take your pups from you to be sure you only have 4-5 pups per year, you might as well just take 5 guaranteed pups per year.

The unknown fates especially irk me as it is not due to them wandering off, you could be all together in the Young Hunters quest, 100% health, 100% food and still somehow your pup just vanishes??? All to meet this 4-5 built in game limit.

But yeah that's my opinion on it. If you don't enjoy losing your pups to BS, just turn that setting totally off as it is BUILT IN TO THE GAME to kill your pups because heaven forbid you played well and got all 6 or 7 through to Young Hunters, time to unknown fate them so you only have 4-5.

[Loach]

The aim of the game is to simulate the reality that wolves live, so I don't personally look at the RNG deaths in that way. Life of a wild animal is unpredictable and so there are situations that happen where nothing could have prevented it. The option to turn it off is for players that do not wish to engage with that unpredictability.

[Roger Mexico]

This was tested on a brand new save.

Out of the last 7 pups who have gotten sick, only 1 died from Sickness.

[AbelWolf076]

Unknown fates seem to be needless anyways when you have so many opportunities to lose your pups to predators, sickness and now with the saga, hunting accidents or wolf raids. I don't see the need for it, also it feels like copy and paste from the Lost to the Wilderness death, except more annoying/irritating and pre-determined.

Even if you have an option to turn it off, it still limits you by 1-2 pups which is utterly bs.

[topp]

There's the option to turn them off, so why complain about it. Do what you wish to. I actually don't mind it, since then I can make up interesting stories about what happened to the pups who suffered 'mysterious fate', which, for a person who likes making interesting story lines for their wolves, is actually kind of nice.
And actually, there is a chance to have 7 pups survive with all RNG deaths on. It's just rare.

And you won't be able to get 100% achievements if you have unknown fate turned off. I won't spoil the hidden achievement, but just so you know, there is a benefit to playing with it on.

[Pussinboots]

This isn't new information, most people already know this. Also, a lot of people have a very... intense level of attachment to the pups that I don't understand. They're not real and 5 pups making it to adulthood is plenty to have a decent pack.

[[H0N0R] HPz]

Yeah I'm also a little miffed. It's a waste of my time. Why spawn in NPCS just to kill them off arbitrarily? Annoying. 'Muh Realism' isn't a good excuse for game design that can be improved upon.

[AbelWolf076]

Originally posted by AbelWolf076:

Unknown fates seem to be needless anyways when you have so many opportunities to lose your pups to predators, sickness and now with the saga, hunting accidents or wolf raids. I don't see the need for it, also it feels like copy and paste from the Lost to the Wilderness death, except more annoying/irritating and pre-determined.

Even if you have an option to turn it off, it still limits you by 1-2 pups which is utterly bs.

I'm actually gonna continue this thought- people tend to hate unknown fates and complain about it because when it happens, it's sudden and pre-determined, punishing to players- both new and veteran, devs didn't say a word, and most importantly, the limit contradicts itself.

and you must be wondering- how does it contradict itself? the game wants you to have 5 pups live per year, yes BUT it'll still kill pups, even if you have 5 total for a litter, this becomes more apparent with unknown fates turned on. I had a friend with 5 pups and they lost one to unknown fate, essentially punishing them for having the game limit amount of pups live.

also, if the game wants to limit you on how many pups you have because of pack and litter size- how come people still get big packs made up of around 20 wolves when the purpose of unknown fates is to prevent people from having big packs??? this makes it POINTLESS to have, both as a death and a game feature.

even if the patch notes said the pup w/ unknown fate can reappear- that doesn't mean anything, you'd have to be lucky for them to even do so.

[cutecabaret]

I agree with AbelWolf, honestly. It's overkill to have as a game feature when pups can still die, it's bad game design from a gameplay perspective, there's no actual gameplay CONNECTED to it like sickness has, and it's not even actually doing what it's purported to do re: keep pack sizes realistic.

I would much rather have them cap 4 star diversity to 5 pups and just remove the ability to have 7 pups altogether, keep sickness toggle the way it is, and increase dispersal rate, along with informational loading screen tidbits that mention pup mortality facts.

I think saying "we have a toggle about it so stop complaining" is also a little unfair, but I do think that BECAUSE we have a toggle about it, it's clearly unfortunately in the game to stay.

Everybody always harps on about how "Well, in the wild pups die" but to me, it's not even about that. It's that Unknown Fate is BORING and doesn't actually HAVE gameplay around it except for the spoiler achievement, which FEELS like it was added specifically because the dev team doesn't like the fact that many people are probably going to turn Unknown Fate off and want to encourage you to keep it on.

They weren't really happy about making a sickness toggle either - the intended gameplay experience is that you have 7 pups, ideally, and that only 5/7 make it if you are a skilled player. I understand that that is the experience the devs want, and I'm okay having that experience - I have RNG deaths on for everything - but I also understand that not everybody wants that experience either, and I think it's kind of unfair for the game to basically punish you for wanting to customize your own experience.

If the devs capped max litter for EVERYBODY at 5 pups, then at least EVERYBODY has to work around that, and they could still customize their experience for harder challenges if they wanted.

And while I am fine with RNG deaths on, I do wish that at the very least they would add a little bit more of a text blurb beyond "unknown fate." It's just overall boring for the game to just be like "ooh, pup disappeared" without gameplay attached to it. Give us a random cause of disappearance at the very least.

[DragonOvLeaves]

Honestly, I haven't even had the unknown fate really affect me all that much. Out of about 8 litters of saga pups, I only ever had one pup go off to meet an unknown fate. If you are extremely successful at keeping pups safe and fed, then the smaller litters shouldn't be a problem. If you tend to lose some pups to sickness, hunger, or predators, then having the larger litters can help offset the pups you do lose and the unknown deaths have a low chance of happening anyways.

[StinkyFeet]

I hadn't thought of the RNG deaths essentially making 7 pup litters obsolete...hmm. If the game does pretty much guarantee that only around 5 pups will survive if you have all RNG deaths on, why even have 7 pup litters? Maybe I'm overthinking it.

Anyway I recently turned off RNG deaths. I stuck through it for three litters with it on, and sickness was brutal and staying with sick pups was boring. The latest litter I did with all RNG off was more relaxing and less worrying. Personally I prefer to keep combat, hunting, and juggling the various needs of your pack as the challenging part of the game, but leave out the boring + sad chore of sitting by a sick pup.

[💫Fable💫]

When i write my opinion, i don't want to diminish any of y'all's -- i for sure understand the frustration. But the RNG death are NOT intended as "punishments". It is for balance purposes. Which, i can understand is frustrating for players. But the devs have discussed multiple times how they are truly trying to simulate the realistic life of a wolf (as Loach stated), and how IRL, about 40-50% of wolf pup litters survive. It's just not realistic for every single litter to survive.
This particular devblog goes further into detail on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PC9MoXmJDI
I don't mind this new death type; for me at least, i'm relatively experienced, so pup deaths before the Saga were becoming increasingly less common (i'm talking full-sized 7 pup litters making it to Endless Summer across multiple Accurate saves). With my current main wolf, I'm currently raising his fourth litter of pups, and I only JUST experienced my first unknown death. And the thing is, this pup was 1. a part of a 7 pup litter, and we had just moved to a rendezvous site, 2. my previous litters, only 1 pup died for the first 2; third litter, 2/5 died. So besides 3 pups who dispersed, we have a relatively large pack consisting of 10 adults (including me and my mate).
I also understand this is not everyone's same situation though.

Again, i do understand the frustration, confusion, etc. overall mixed feelings about this mechanic. It all really comes down to balance, performance, and realism purposes, not punishment. At the same time, maybe improvements or tweaks will come along -- who knows. Although, with this mechanic, i believe there's also a hidden achievement where there is a chance a pup who suffered from an unknown fate can return again as an adult.

[cutecabaret]

It doesn't matter if the devs don't INTEND it as a punishment - the actual implementation is that it is a punishment for the chance of having 7 pup litters.

Realism should not come at the cost of gameplay, especially when they bend on many other things for gameplay purposes.

RNG deaths do in fact make 7 pup litters obsolete. If the devs need game balance, they should have just capped everybody at 5. Because now the people who do have 7 pups survive are playing an unbalanced game thanks to pure luck.

The achievement was implemented because the developers don't want people to deviate from the way they think the game ought to be played and are trying to entice you towards what they think the "correct" game experience is.

If you are approaching pack size limit, dispersal is a thing, that is both realistic, equally random, and has actual gameplay tied to it in the form of multiple achievements, an ability to see them around on the map, and to track them in known wolves. It has more gameplay features than unknown fate does. Sickness has more gameplay than unknown fate does.

The problem with Unknown Fate is not pups dying, it's not the realism or lackethereof, its that in a game about raising wolf pups, it's boring to have them just poof disappear out of the blue.

[Thicket Reaper]

I'm not a personal fan of unknown fates, and I get how they can feel like a punishment for the player. But why is the solution to limit all players to five pups? You have an option for yourself to limit at five, and won't have to deal with RNG deaths. But I'm willing to deal with them. I've gotten a litter of six to adulthood, and I know there's a small chance of all seven. I like trying to get my whole litter to adults, and wouldn't appreciate being limited out of "fairness"

[cutecabaret]

The solution I thought of was limit to 5 pups because 5 pups seems to be the cutoff that the devs want for maximum pack size. In reality, yeah, actually, I do think we should be able to have 7 pups with all RNG deaths turned off and then just have the dispersal mechanic handle pack size capping instead.

But because the devs want 5 pups to be the magic number, this feels like a solution that would actually realistically happen vs wishful thinking.

Edit: Also, to be quite honest, the issue isn't really about Unknown Fate. The issue is that the developers have what they feel is a Correct, Proper Way to play WolfQuest: Anniversary Edition and the things they choose to add or remove or tweak reflect that.

For whatever reason, the dev team thinks it's completely unacceptable for somebody's personal, individual single player game that they spent money on to have an unbalanced larger than intended pack of wolves that makes the game difficulty super easy, even if the rest of us play as intended. Same thing with anti-cheat measures about the unlockable coats.

I just can't figure out why letting a few individuals go nuts with their own personal games is such a problem when the vast majority of players DO agree with the dev vision - myself included! - and play in the proper way.

(Although sometimes I do wish I could cheat unlock the coats, because boy has the Saga made unlocking them difficult now, haha.)

[Loach]

RNG deaths is like rolling dice. You'll win some. You'll lose some. Some of those losses will be disease. Some will be unknown fate. The larger your pack the more dice the game rolls. But there's always chance they all might make it. The door is never closed. It just takes both skill and luck to get there.

It's why I can't really call the system itself "punishing". It's just rolling dice. There'd need to be some pretty specific things for it to look like that to me, and the game has deliberately avoided all of those things.