Nerf Shermans

[Punisher_Reb]

Over and over I have German medium armor not moving and in ambush positions, and moving Shermans ALWAYS get the first shot. The vast majority of the time Shermans win the engagements. Thehe last skirmish I played, I had 2 Stug 4s (135mm penetration) in advancing. They met 2 Sherman 3s (90mm penetration), and after it was all said said and done, they killed both Stugs, and kept rolling on. Shermans shouldn't get the first shot no matter what, and shouldn't be able to win almost every engagement vs German medium armor.

Not to mention they are to effective for their price. German medium armor, even with a better gun on paper. Fsr too often lose going head to head. They should be more or less equally effective for their cost. Shermans not only win head to head, but are far more effective against soft targets.

[zhou117]

bro, 90mm pan only have 36% chance to pan 100mm armor, so if u say ur two stug 4 lose to two Shermans there will be only two ways.
1. ur "2" stug 4 are fighting 2 M4 separatly so 2v1 X2 and each M4 take only one shoot and they both somehow didn't bounce.
2.u try to hard push shermans in the city and stugs get close range side shoot.

u can't rage blame the shermans for ur luck/mistake

[Punisher_Reb]

Nope head on engagement. Selected both Stugs, and gave them the same advance order. Hasn't happened just once, but multiple times since I've played the game since launch. The Shermans ALWAYS get first shot, and gives them a decided advantage against any armor. They're simply too strong for their price point, and have been so since the game has been released.

[thugnightly]

Sherman's have stabilizers so they absolutely should get the first shot off. Stug III are only effective against sherman's at 1300-1500M. At close range it is even odds. Sherman's cost 10pts more than PZ IV and 5 points less than Stugs so I is balanced. More practice and you will realize this.

[Punisher_Reb]

Originally posted by thugnightly:

Sherman's have stabilizers so they absolutely should get the first shot off. Stug III are only effective against sherman's at 1300-1500M. At close range it is even odds. Sherman's cost 10pts more than PZ IV and 5 points less than Stugs so I is balanced. More practice and you will realize this.

I've had plenty of practice. Ambushing units should get their shot off first. They never do vs Shermans. Stabilizers or not, they have too much of an advantage.

[thugnightly]

I'd be amazed if you found 5 people that agree with you. The price point is reasonable where it is. Pz4 and Stugs are a good match for sherman. You just have to vet them

[Dogmeat]

i noticed the stugs didnt do to well i think maybe as assault guns they suffer far worse from any pathing 'frailties' of the AI - like pointing the wrong way for a Sherman aint nearly as bad it is for a Stug

[Kersch]

Originally posted by Dogmeat:

i noticed the stugs didnt do to well i think maybe as assault guns they suffer far worse from any pathing 'frailties' of the AI - like pointing the wrong way for a Sherman aint nearly as bad it is for a Stug

Stug might be better if it got a higher stealth bonus from low silhouette

[Dogmeat]

Originally posted by Kersch:

Originally posted by Dogmeat:

i noticed the stugs didnt do to well i think maybe as assault guns they suffer far worse from any pathing 'frailties' of the AI - like pointing the wrong way for a Sherman aint nearly as bad it is for a Stug

Stug might be better if it got a higher stealth bonus from low silhouette :USSR_bear:

For sure that was one of the thing s the Sherman crews cursed, hull down it was a near mininimal target -


- the Stug uses a tank ai when really it almost more of an AT gun that might cause some issues.

Was wondered if vehicle stealth reflected size/profile and effected the chance to hit in SD2 but watching recon get knocked off not sure it does. (perhaps stealth for vehicles reflects to hit not +/-sure, nor sure if high speed makes vehicles harder to hit other than limit of LOS)

*btw on topic im always very hesitant to nerf anything before its fully investigated.

[Sluggger]

I get the OP but its better to leave Sherman as is. Every tank in the game except for Panthers, Tigers, IS2s, King Tigers will be nerfed very soon with the range re-balance. Then we will get threads about buff the Shermans lol.

[blairzhao111]

Maybe just 2 (double) vetted Shermans vs plain Stugs in the case and for close range combat, Stugs are not efficient due to lack of turret and have to rotate first. Sherman has been nerfed previously so i think it is in a relatively reasonable price now, but as someone mentioned, i like the idea that Stug's stealth should be bumped up one level.

[Dogmeat]

Most stugs have long barrels so when the range changes come Sherman III are going to be nerfed naturally, still no answer from the knowledgeable if the size/profile difference between the Sherman and the very low profile Stug effect chances to hit. As it most definitely historically did. If not that would be an obvious an realistic fix.

btw ive run sandbox games stugs vs shermans and seems the way the ai paths is a big factor. (both for ai players or even your own tanks and stugs)

Assault guns need a tweaked ai imvho.

[Punisher_Reb]

Stugs should at least have at least the same availability as Shermans. Why can you get 3 double vet Shermans, and 2 double vet Stugs?

[Dogmeat]

Originally posted by Punisher_Reb:

Stugs should at least have at least the same availability as Shermans. Why can you get 3 double vet Shermans, and 2 double vet Stugs?

Guess an issue the game covers two different fronts and two very different times for the German Army.

When historically for the German troops awaiting the invasion they only possessed 1,552 tanks Total - facing them, well i cant find an accurate count for total Allied Tanks but the allies lost 4000 tanks in Normandy. so you can guess how many Shermans they had to send into the grinder.

Total Stug IV Production for the war was 9,408 for the Sherman 4 alone it was 49,234, so it makes sense they cheaper and more plentiful. I do agree that they (Stug) deserve higher verterancy bonuses (as in loose less for higher veterancy)

[Punisher_Reb]

I don't think production numbers are relevant for game play sake. Shermans have to many advantages, as do Allies in general. They have cheaper units, and with greater availability. Shermans always get first shot, as a result always get criticals first. If they don't get the kill outright. If being ambushed they should not get the first shot ever.

At their price, and generous vet curve. You can buy more at higher vet, than your Axis opponent. You can flood the battlefield with high vet armor. It's too much of an advantage.

[Dogmeat]

well i guess its the challenge of a balancing a game when war aint fair

Allies outnumbered Axis armour more than 10 to one so i do believe they should be more available and cheaper.

Stugs were mostly used in camouflaged ambush (in Normandy), If if you do that in the game its unlikely the Sherman gets the 1st shot. Assault guns despite the name are not good at attacking. (like a tank)

Also i mention the Stugs long barrel will almost certainly make Stugs out range Mark3's as well, when the changes come on the 29th.

Lower Profile i dont know if it makes a stug harder to hit but if dont it shud.