Congrats Allies. Eugen is this really what you want? Such an unbalanced game?

[rommel2009]

I'm so surprised by content of new DLC after I see it. The current 10v10 balance is horrible already. But new DLC even make it worse.

Allies got everything now, they can rush at A phase, they have plenty of 17-pdr, they control air all the time, their artys are overwhelming, they also got lots of powerful tanks more than ever. (Firefly, Hellcat, Achilles, Challenger and more than you can ever imagine)

At the same time, Axis got broken heart soldiers, expensive and useless tanks. Some players might be excited by Knispel. What if I tell you most inf of 16 Luftwaffe are heartbroken? Besides, 716 Infanterie don't have any tank, not even one card.

I think allies infantry and tanks will be more unstoppable after new DLC release. I do have some suggestions about balance that I could provide.
Firstly, 17-pdr range should be 1750 rather than 2000. 2000 is too far, and in this DLC allies don't lack 17-pdr or powerful tanks anymore. Tiger, Panther, even KingTiger is just a joke in front of so many anti tank methods.
Secondly, at least MG34 should be able to shoot when inf is moving. Grenadier is totally trash facing allied inf now. Grenadier just get suppressed and surrender. It's basically impossible to win in fight. Not to mention allies usually have cars around.

These are my suggestions for now. I don't know if you would take my suggestions but I believe we all want this game to be better and more balanced.

[Amormaliar]

引用自 Odysseus：

Panthers and Tigers are significantly worse than 17 pdr vehicles because - the Firefly, Achilles, 17pdr all go through Tiger and Panther armor as consistently as Tigers and Panthers go through Firefly and Achilles armor, fireflies are cheaper, so when you double up fireflies you may lose one firefly but you are guaranteed it is traded for a panther, this leads to a snowball effect because with their armor/firepower balance at a certain threshold they are functionally identical, with neither bouncing or missing often enough to cause a difference in long term pt value.
The Panther may beat the Firefly 6/10 times in a 1v1, but you rarely see Panther and Fireflies fighting consistent 1v1s its typically a two or more trading with a panther or overwhelming them.
Problem is the firefly price is way too cheap for being able to trade with the "Panther Class". Germans dont really have a lot of tank variation while the allies have high armor mediums, high firepowerpower mediums, cheap and fast mediums, and balancing variations of those, where the Germans have either the well balanced PzIV or the Panther, and thats it, and the Panther is easily negated by any division which has more than 1 FireFly card.

Panthers/Tigers can be killed only with 17-pdr (if we're not talking about meme APCR on 6-pdr on very short range). Firefly/Achilles can be killed with Marder, Panzer IV, Stug or basically anything else. Marder/Panzer/Stug trade vs Firefly much better than Firefly against Panther for example. I'm not even talking about Pak-40... or how many decks you have with Fireflies/Achilles (and with how many cards) vs decks with Panthers (and with which amount of cards in them).

[Jerico]

引用自 Odysseus：

Panthers and Tigers are significantly worse than 17 pdr vehicles because - the Firefly, Achilles, 17pdr all go through Tiger and Panther armor as consistently as Tigers and Panthers go through Firefly and Achilles armor, fireflies are cheaper, so when you double up fireflies you may lose one firefly but you are guaranteed it is traded for a panther, this leads to a snowball effect because with their armor/firepower balance at a certain threshold they are functionally identical, with neither bouncing or missing often enough to cause a difference in long term pt value.
The Panther may beat the Firefly 6/10 times in a 1v1, but you rarely see Panther and Fireflies fighting consistent 1v1s its typically a two or more trading with a panther or overwhelming them.
Problem is the firefly price is way too cheap for being able to trade with the "Panther Class". Germans dont really have a lot of tank variation while the allies have high armor mediums, high firepowerpower mediums, cheap and fast mediums, and balancing variations of those, where the Germans have either the well balanced PzIV or the Panther, and thats it, and the Panther is easily negated by any division which has more than 1 FireFly card.

Stug III or IV easy kill even ISU-122s. Shermans Cromvels or T-34-85 just meat for them. One can destroy 5-6 in one fight. German weapons has a way better range and accuracy. Two Stug IV can kill even Tiger. Firefly and Achilles no so strong and can die from random shot Panzer IV or howitzers. You can't stop Tiger and Stug spam. Germas has medium armour to. Just random Panther or Nashorn can kill all of you IS-2. Allies medium armours not so cheap and die from any hit.

[LiquidSB - Tassigny]

引用自 Shortpower：

引用自 CrabNicholson：

When y'all allies supporters gonna apologize for the atom bomb, or for sending the Ukrainian cossacks to the USSR along with their wives and children to be machine-gunned down, or for the reprisal attacks committed against German civilians or any of the other numerous western allied atrocities that were never prosecuted? Or if you want to talk Soviet atrocities, how about making a cannibal island for their own citizens who lacked an internal passport and making them fight over food and eat eachother; or literally impaling Polish soldiers with spears through the anus like they did with Captain Rosinsky.

It's really pathetic to cry about ERWIN ROMMEL of all people at a time when all of this was going on.

Allied reprisal killings weren't top down policy, Nazi policy was policy. Crappy individuals did crappy things for the western allies, and the governments did several crappy things too but Hitler's Germany started the war and continued to commit atrocities on basically every non-Germanlike group in their territory. Soviet policy was terrible too, but at least at the end of the war their intention wasn't to ethnically cleanse Germany and replace it with Russians.

The Atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki of course is a miserable and a terrible loss of human life and a destruction of quality of life for many more, but consider how the Japanese fought during the island hopping campaign - the death and suffering caused by an invasion would've been much more extreme. Additionally it allowed Japanese infrastructure to largely exit the war intact (because literal battles were not fought on top of it) so it was easier for them to rebuild as compared to say Germany.

Germany didn't start the war. France and UK did it.

[Odysseus]

引用自 Amormaliar：

引用自 Odysseus：

Panthers and Tigers are significantly worse than 17 pdr vehicles because - the Firefly, Achilles, 17pdr all go through Tiger and Panther armor as consistently as Tigers and Panthers go through Firefly and Achilles armor, fireflies are cheaper, so when you double up fireflies you may lose one firefly but you are guaranteed it is traded for a panther, this leads to a snowball effect because with their armor/firepower balance at a certain threshold they are functionally identical, with neither bouncing or missing often enough to cause a difference in long term pt value.
The Panther may beat the Firefly 6/10 times in a 1v1, but you rarely see Panther and Fireflies fighting consistent 1v1s its typically a two or more trading with a panther or overwhelming them.
Problem is the firefly price is way too cheap for being able to trade with the "Panther Class". Germans dont really have a lot of tank variation while the allies have high armor mediums, high firepowerpower mediums, cheap and fast mediums, and balancing variations of those, where the Germans have either the well balanced PzIV or the Panther, and thats it, and the Panther is easily negated by any division which has more than 1 FireFly card.

Panthers/Tigers can be killed only with 17-pdr (if we're not talking about meme APCR on 6-pdr on very short range). Firefly/Achilles can be killed with Marder, Panzer IV, Stug or basically anything else. Marder/Panzer/Stug trade vs Firefly much better than Firefly against Panther for example. I'm not even talking about Pak-40... or how many decks you have with Fireflies/Achilles (and with how many cards) vs decks with Panthers (and with which amount of cards in them).

Marders, PZIV, and Stugs are all outranged by fireflies and achilles and often have less accuracy, they are not good against them and there is a 50/50 chance they will bounce while the Firefly shreds them. The Pak 40 is outranged by the Firefly and Achilles.
There is a way for the firefly to 'safely' engage those German mediums, there is not away for the Panther or Tiger to 'safely' engage the firefly. I am not saying the Firefly is too good in stats, I am saying it is too good in its price, because you can get them so readily and every engagement with a panther or tiger is either a total victory or a trade, they are overtuned.

[Odysseus]

引用自 Jerico：

引用自 Odysseus：

Panthers and Tigers are significantly worse than 17 pdr vehicles because - the Firefly, Achilles, 17pdr all go through Tiger and Panther armor as consistently as Tigers and Panthers go through Firefly and Achilles armor, fireflies are cheaper, so when you double up fireflies you may lose one firefly but you are guaranteed it is traded for a panther, this leads to a snowball effect because with their armor/firepower balance at a certain threshold they are functionally identical, with neither bouncing or missing often enough to cause a difference in long term pt value.
The Panther may beat the Firefly 6/10 times in a 1v1, but you rarely see Panther and Fireflies fighting consistent 1v1s its typically a two or more trading with a panther or overwhelming them.
Problem is the firefly price is way too cheap for being able to trade with the "Panther Class". Germans dont really have a lot of tank variation while the allies have high armor mediums, high firepowerpower mediums, cheap and fast mediums, and balancing variations of those, where the Germans have either the well balanced PzIV or the Panther, and thats it, and the Panther is easily negated by any division which has more than 1 FireFly card.

Stug III or IV easy kill even ISU-122s. Shermans Cromvels or T-34-85 just meat for them. One can destroy 5-6 in one fight. German weapons has a way better range and accuracy. Two Stug IV can kill even Tiger. Firefly and Achilles no so strong and can die from random shot Panzer IV or howitzers. You can't stop Tiger and Stug spam. Germas has medium armour to. Just random Panther or Nashorn can kill all of you IS-2. Allies medium armours not so cheap and die from any hit.

majority of head on heavy/heavy-medium tank engagements take place beyond 1750m of range, usually things 1500 and below are flanking shots. The Firefly is the best medium tank in the game right now because it has enough armor to bounce the majority of cheaper tanks and enough firepower to trade efficiently with whatever heavier tanks can pierce its armor. There is a threshold of AP and Armor where 10-30mm of armor no longer matters when everyone in the 'class' of tank has 165+ of armor pen.

[T12A34N56K]

The Pz. 4 is good at punching abouve it's weight, same with the Pak 40. The Sherman and T-34/76 aren't good at that. The range problem is one of positioning, with the proper use of light and heavy forests the Pz. 4 and Pak 40 can't get seen from further than 1750m range. The Firefly is a lot weaker to lesser tanks than the Panther/Tiger. The Firefly has at best a slightly unarmoured Sherman hull, it isn't enough to stop a Pak at range reliablely, the Panther/Tiger is weak to those guns only at close range. The Germans get equipped with guns that punch above their weight, the allies don't. The Axis are overall more reliable at armour fights, the Allies have some standout decks and pieces, but not that many. Pound for pound the Axis are better that the Allies, they can more reliablely destroy Allied armour. The Firefly is an exception put in the spotlight to make the argument, I doubt any of you can call the T-34 or the Sherman broken, they are ok, good at their job, not broken but weak to enemy guns. The soviet heavies as well, just because they can get removed with ease at close range by a Panther and Pz. 4, or just two Pz. 4's. You pay a premium for the axis armour for reliability.

[Amormaliar]

引用自 Odysseus：

Marders, PZIV, and Stugs are all outranged by fireflies and achilles and often have less accuracy, they are not good against them and there is a 50/50 chance they will bounce while the Firefly shreds them. The Pak 40 is outranged by the Firefly and Achilles.
There is a way for the firefly to 'safely' engage those German mediums, there is not away for the Panther or Tiger to 'safely' engage the firefly. I am not saying the Firefly is too good in stats, I am saying it is too good in its price, because you can get them so readily and every engagement with a panther or tiger is either a total victory or a trade, they are overtuned.

Aforementioned Axis tanks can realistically kill Firefly even 1v1, while “mediums” of Allies can’t kill Tiger or Panther in the same situation. T-34/85 also can’t really kill them, while costing only 20pts less. Same with AT-guns, except for 17-pdr or BS-3 in one division, APCR for US can’t kill them too with its ammo, even if both shots wouldn’t miss and pen it.
Other AT-guns can’t pen them too except for very close distance.
And Tiger/Panther still have more armor and pen than Firefly, while being available in much more divs

So, by your logic - Panthers & Tigers overtuned and massively underpriced too

[Acre]

Oddly enough, I find 10v10 to be balanced enough when levels are similar. Few points though: (These are only made for 10v10 gameplay, rest of the modes are completely different games)

1. Air shouldn't be seriously considered since it's only a problem in very low level games, the efficiency of 2-3 star light/medium AA is very hard to move past. If you're losing to air / winning solely because of air , its because you're playing with/against noobs and nothing will save you.
2. AT is usually used to deny flank access from the allies side while tanks(talking about big cats/elephants) are killed with HE(rockets or radio arty), that's at least my experience in 2500 10v10 games or so. While 17pdr is effective it doesn't auto penetrate 125-130mm of armour @ 2km and it struggles with 140mm to be effective from the front. It's also not so good against sig33, grille and equivalents which Axis get in abundance.
3. The real battle is rockets vs tube arty vs quick CB(counterbattery) against rocket stuff and that front is pretty much balanced. They are practically the same on the hvyer side, both have best medium stuff (Romanian 100mm and long 75mm for Axis), Axishave better spam with 150mm nebels while 300mm andriushas are easier to use than framens and 300mm nebels.
4. It's hard to debate about allies having the best infantry when 715th exists on the Axis side, That front is pretty much balanced, but allies maybe have more divisions with better stuff for 10v10

The biggest factor in 10v10 is the prevalence of veterans getting themselves nailed to the axis side which creates imbalanced games from the player experience perspective (SD2 is REALLY hard to master). New players use crappy 1v1 decks for 10v10 as well which is another major factor coupled with allies almost always being down on player levels.

AFK detection and kick at the start of the 10v10 games so that AI can take over would make them much more enjoyable(the biggest issue atm IMO), but I guess we won't ever get that.

[Odysseus]

引用自 Amormaliar：

引用自 Odysseus：

Marders, PZIV, and Stugs are all outranged by fireflies and achilles and often have less accuracy, they are not good against them and there is a 50/50 chance they will bounce while the Firefly shreds them. The Pak 40 is outranged by the Firefly and Achilles.
There is a way for the firefly to 'safely' engage those German mediums, there is not away for the Panther or Tiger to 'safely' engage the firefly. I am not saying the Firefly is too good in stats, I am saying it is too good in its price, because you can get them so readily and every engagement with a panther or tiger is either a total victory or a trade, they are overtuned.

Aforementioned Axis tanks can realistically kill Firefly even 1v1, while “mediums” of Allies can’t kill Tiger or Panther in the same situation. T-34/85 also can’t really kill them, while costing only 20pts less. Same with AT-guns, except for 17-pdr or BS-3 in one division, APCR for US can’t kill them too with its ammo, even if both shots wouldn’t miss and pen it.
Other AT-guns can’t pen them too except for very close distance.
And Tiger/Panther still have more armor and pen than Firefly, while being available in much more divs

So, by your logic - Panthers & Tigers overtuned and massively underpriced too

Tiger and Panther having more armor and pen does not matter because both reliably pen each other at max range, so the Tigers and Panthers are literally just more expensive while performing near identically to the Firefly.

[Amormaliar]

引用自 Odysseus：

Tiger and Panther having more armor and pen does not matter because both reliably pen each other at max range, so the Tigers and Panthers are literally just more expensive while performing near identically to the Firefly.

It's not important - it still give them higher pen/survivability against majority of weapons in the game.

[Odysseus]

引用自 Amormaliar：

引用自 Odysseus：

Tiger and Panther having more armor and pen does not matter because both reliably pen each other at max range, so the Tigers and Panthers are literally just more expensive while performing near identically to the Firefly.

It's not important - it still give them higher pen/survivability against majority of weapons in the game.

no it doesnt, whatever has trouble going through a panther has trouble going through a firefly, whatever dies easily to a panther dies easily to a firely, actual single digit stats matter less than stat thresholds. like for example 170mm and 185mm are functionally nearly identical in how they actually play out in the game, but if you pay 5pts more for 185 then you are being cheated.

[Amormaliar]

引用自 Odysseus：

引用自 Amormaliar：

It's not important - it still give them higher pen/survivability against majority of weapons in the game.

no it doesnt, whatever has trouble going through a panther has trouble going through a firefly, whatever dies easily to a panther dies easily to a firely, actual single digit stats matter less than stat thresholds. like for example 170mm and 185mm are functionally nearly identical in how they actually play out in the game, but if you pay 5pts more for 185 then you are being cheated.

No, it's not how it works mechanically. And yes, you should pay more.

And as example - T-34/85 (2000m one) can pretty easily kill Firefly but can't really kill a Panther/Tiger like that. Panzer IV/Stug can kill Firefly at 1750m without much problems (you just need to miss less) but can't kill Panther in the same situation. So nope, your example not working here too :D

[Odysseus]

引用自 Amormaliar：

引用自 Odysseus：

no it doesnt, whatever has trouble going through a panther has trouble going through a firefly, whatever dies easily to a panther dies easily to a firely, actual single digit stats matter less than stat thresholds. like for example 170mm and 185mm are functionally nearly identical in how they actually play out in the game, but if you pay 5pts more for 185 then you are being cheated.

No, it's not how it works mechanically. And yes, you should pay more.

And as example - T-34/85 (2000m one) can pretty easily kill Firefly but can't really kill a Panther/Tiger like that. Panzer IV/Stug can kill Firefly at 1750m without much problems (you just need to miss less) but can't kill Panther in the same situation. So nope, your example not working here too :D

T34/85 isnt going up against FIreflies very often, firstly, secondly, It can kill Fireflies and Panthers/Tigers with similar reliability.
PanzerIV and Stug typically arent engaging Fireflies at 1750m of range. They are often taken down long before they get into range,

You are misunderstanding me. Is English your second language?

I am not saying the FIrefly and Panther/Tiger are identical in all cases, I am saying when it comes to Panther/Tiger vs Firefly, the Firefly has a huge advantage in that it means the minimum threshold of Armor/firepower to engage Tigers/Panthers and defeat them about as consistently as Tigers/Panther's defeat the Firefly. Making the fact they are cheaper a huge advantage for them.

[Ahriman]

引用自 Odysseus：

I am not saying the FIrefly and Panther/Tiger are identical in all cases, I am saying when it comes to Panther/Tiger vs Firefly, the Firefly has a huge advantage in that it means the minimum threshold of Armor/firepower to engage Tigers/Panthers and defeat them about as consistently as Tigers/Panther's defeat the Firefly. Making the fact they are cheaper a huge advantage for them.

And you seem to be missing the point he is trying to make completely.

So you think it is as easy to get through 100mm of frontal armor than it is 130mm? Especially since the latter faces majority of the time tanks that have on average 90mm at max range, while the first faces on average 135mm pen weapons? This doesn't make any form of difference to the effectiveness of these units?

[Odysseus]

引用自 Ahriman：

引用自 Odysseus：

I am not saying the FIrefly and Panther/Tiger are identical in all cases, I am saying when it comes to Panther/Tiger vs Firefly, the Firefly has a huge advantage in that it means the minimum threshold of Armor/firepower to engage Tigers/Panthers and defeat them about as consistently as Tigers/Panther's defeat the Firefly. Making the fact they are cheaper a huge advantage for them.

And you seem to be missing the point he is trying to make completely.

So you think it is as easy to get through 100mm of frontal armor than it is 130mm? Especially since the latter faces majority of the time tanks that have on average 90mm at max range, while the first faces on average 135mm pen weapons? This doesn't make any form of difference to the effectiveness of these units?

Yes, there is very little difference between 100mm and 130mm when the basic firepower threshold is 170-185.
Tanks that have on average 90mm at max range and 135mm are losing to a panther due to having less range, not because their armor or pen is too low.