NATO symbol resource?

[aletoledo]

I'm looking for some advice on changing over to NATO symbols and what could be a good resource to show what all the map symbols mean. I'm having a hard time getting enough info out of the RTS symbols and I'm hoping that the NATO symbols give a more useful idea of what each unit actually is. For example, is there a NATO symbol for smg infantry versus rifle infantry?

Even if it's not in the game already, I'm willing to mod in the symbols, but I want to know if the NATO symbols are worth the effort to learn. Right now it seems like mgs are standard infantry symbols, so I know I will have to fix that, but what is the proper mg NATO symbol?

[espinoza6415]

There are several sources that are on the internet, many unclassified PDF type documents from the military are there. Type in "NATO tactical map symbols" and you will find quite a few useful links. FYI, Tactical symbology has changed over the years and what is used today is not exactly the same as what was being used circa WWII. WRT differentiating the types of Infantry units, I have seen it displayed with the words "Rifle" underneath the X in the infantry box or the letters SMG Submachine gun), ATR (anti-tank rifle) etc., mostly in games that use tactical symbols, and as a veteran of the U.S. Army for almost 22 years, the specific weapons were not really the significance of those symbols on the map, but I see no problem with the aforementioned gaming way of displaying the information. Same for machine guns, I have seen MG, LMG, MMG and HMG, e.g. a MG42 team would be displayed as an infantry box with 1 or 2 dots above the box indicating a team/section respectively with a MMG below the X in the box. a U.S. M2 .50 Cal would be similar but with HMG as it is considered by most to be a heavy MG (same goes for the any of the MGs of over 12mm bullet diameter size). I hope the helps you, and if you need any more assistance or have any more questions feel free to contact me.

[aletoledo]

Originally posted by espinoza6415:

There are several sources that are on the internet, many unclassified PDF type documents from the military are there. Type in "NATO tactical map symbols" and you will find quite a few useful links. FYI, Tactical symbology has changed over the years and what is used today is not exactly the same as what was being used circa WWII. WRT differentiating the types of Infantry units, I have seen it displayed with the words "Rifle" underneath the X in the infantry box or the letters SMG Submachine gun), ATR (anti-tank rifle) etc., mostly in games that use tactical symbols, and as a veteran of the U.S. Army for almost 22 years, the specific weapons were not really the significance of those symbols on the map, but I see no problem with the aforementioned gaming way of displaying the information. Same for machine guns, I have seen MG, LMG, MMG and HMG, e.g. a MG42 team would be displayed as an infantry box with 1 or 2 dots above the box indicating a team/section respectively with a MMG below the X in the box. a U.S. M2 .50 Cal would be similar but with HMG as it is considered by most to be a heavy MG (same goes for the any of the MGs of over 12mm bullet diameter size). I hope the helps you, and if you need any more assistance or have any more questions feel free to contact me.

Thanks. So do you use the NATO or the RTS currently? There are so few NATO symbols and the RTS symbols are so arbitrary, I can't see which is better.

What do you personally want in the NATO symbols, assuming you want to use them? It's like Eugen is most of the way there, they just need some finishing touches in there. I'm willing to mod it, but I'd like to know a good direction.

I'm not sure if sticking to the strict modern NATO system is the best, because they might not show up great in-game. Like the HMG symbol might be hard to differentiate from a mortar. However I found korean war era symbol that represents the HMG as a sideways mortar symbol that might be nice. Also while I can't find a way to differentiate SMG squads from rifles, I'm thinking a thick line on the left to mark them as heavy could work. Not sure if writing 'SMG' on it might be better though.

[espinoza6415]

No, I use the RTS symbols in the game, but I have played tactical games (computer and board games) for decades that use the NATO symbols, and of course having been in the Army, you use them in the planning and execution (battle tracking) of real life missions. I think I know the issues you have with the symbols, and I think it is one we all have- the time it takes to properly identify the type of unit (and to assess their capabilities/range(s) of their weapons) takes too long and makes it hard to keep up with the game when you are fighting an enemy that quickly responds to everything. You will never get the perfect solution outside of spending lots of time memorizing the symbols and equating the symbol to the weapons capabilities/ranges of every unit in the game, and until you master that skill, you will still not be able to get the "perfect counter unit/capability" to every situation you face in the game. Some players have mastered this, and they post their games on-line and when I watch their replays, I am impressed at how quickly they assess and counter the enemy units as they are identified in the game (they have also learned and mastered the use of hotkeys to speed up their play).
Even if you modified the symbols to add the information you want to help clarify the unit's capabilities, with the size of the icons being what they are, zooming in to see the symbols/letters like SMG is time consuming in a situation where immediate assessment skills and action is the optimum solution, and everything that slows that decision making process down- like having to zoom in to see the unit correctly slows your ability to react down.
It's the ancient Chinese Proverb about knowing yourself, knowing the enemy and knowing the terrain and you will never be defeated in battle. These are some of the attributes of the great battlefield commanders that very few master, and those that do go on to be successful on the battlefield- whether it's real or in a computer game.
On another note, you can always hit the "i" key after selecting a unit with the cursor and it will bring up the exact type of unit data card on the screen where you can get all the specific information on the unit you are dealing with, but like I said- time is the issue in a fast paced, ever-changing battlefield situation.
Let me know if this helps or if you have any other questions.