Infantry anti tanks weapons

[✠Cherrybomb✠]

Beside the broken infantry in general after the last two patches there is one aspect of infantry combat feeling unpolished since the arrival of western armies. The anti tank capabilities of infantry.

The Panzerschreck is a great anti tank weapon with exceptional potential, but with high risk and low vitality as well. Except some examples you're just getting the Panzerschreck within two man squads. The precision of 90%, damage of 12 and armour percing of 200mm is without doubt at the pinnacle. That makes it a vulnerable, but effective weapon.

The Panzerfaust is the stamped kid of infantry anti tank. The range is with 120m only 20m longer than the at-grenates, but with much longer aimtime and short ammunition storage. Even the damage is with 10 below the expection of an 149mm warhead. The sight in thinly grown forrests is 150m causing the panzerfausts effective in that areas to a low value. Fast reload after the years long aimtime and great penetration can't really balance the weaknesses. The Panzerfaust is the worst perfoming of all anti tank rockets.

At-grenades of Germany and Russia are totally equal in damage of 10, range of 100m, penetration of 300mm, ect. and are most likely in the right position of all at weapons.

The Bazooka is the kid that got a bit too much love of their parents. The penetration of 180mm is (depending on the source) 80mm - 100mm above the real value. But even with smaller caliber than the Panzerfaust and Panzerschreck it got 10 damage able to one shoot everything except super heavies at the range of 250m. The precision of 80% isn't much worse than the panzerschreck, but with higher rate of fire. The best thing about the Bazooka is the possibility to get it with a squad of lines of infantry for the same price as a Panzerschreck as well as the awesome avaibility of the two man squads.

The PIAT has about 50mm - 75mm more pen than it's real counter part, again depending on the source. Weird about the PIAT is the damage of 12 compared to Bazooka. Precision is like the real one terrible, but rate of fire of 7 and range of 200m is very decent. Special about the PIAT is like Bazooka great avaibility of two man squads and widely use within line infantry.

My solution to bring some balance to these weapons:

Panzerfaust: range - 120m -> 150m
damage - 10 -> 12

Bazooka: range - 250m -> 200m
penetration - 180mm -> 100mm

PIAT: range - 200m -> 150m
penetration - 150mm -> 100mm
damage - 12 -> 10

Additionally the usage of Panzerschreck was very very low on the russian side. The extraordinary availability of russian Panzerschrecks have no historical context and feels inappropriate in balance wise. The russian Panzerschrecks should only available in Phase A to reduce the number like it was done with Tiger II.

As always feel free to copy my suggestion for the next balance patch, Eugen.

Stay safe!

[Elettricità sovieta]

Originally posted by Der Kaiser:

Originally posted by Elettricità sovieta:

Why?

hope your kidding, it is very obvious as to why. Ineffective range and aim time, most of the time the units using them are spotted before they can fire them whether it be heavy cover or medium cover and there is no recon. Also if they do happen to get into range any tank for example will be able to aim and shoot before the unit can fire their panzerfaust and thus get pinned before use

The aim time hasn't been reduced? It was bugged before (but I've seen that all at weapons and sometimes flamethrowers get stuck). For the rest, a panzerfaust that shot at 150m is just ridiculous. In reality it had more or less the same effective range of a grenade so 120m are ok, and they really make the difference in light woods. If the problem with the aiming time wasn't fixed (as reported by one of the last changelog) they have to do it, but I don't know why you think that it should become a sort of wundewaffe.

[Der Kaiser]

Originally posted by Elettricità sovieta:

Originally posted by Der Kaiser:

hope your kidding, it is very obvious as to why. Ineffective range and aim time, most of the time the units using them are spotted before they can fire them whether it be heavy cover or medium cover and there is no recon. Also if they do happen to get into range any tank for example will be able to aim and shoot before the unit can fire their panzerfaust and thus get pinned before use

The aim time hasn't been reduced? It was bugged before (but I've seen that all at weapons and sometimes flamethrowers get stuck). For the rest, a panzerfaust that shot at 150m is just ridiculous. In reality it had more or less the same effective range of a grenade so 120m are ok, and they really make the difference in light woods. If the problem with the aiming time wasn't fixed (as reported by one of the last changelog) they have to do it, but I don't know why you think that it should become a sort of wundewaffe.

this is arcade game not completely realistic # 1, & # 2 ,30m more range isn't going to make it a wonder weapon , cant believe you would even say that. Also never did i say what i thought it should be but rather how it should be further balanced because for a long time it has not been performing well

[✠Cherrybomb✠]

Originally posted by Elettricità sovieta:

Originally posted by Der Kaiser:

hope your kidding, it is very obvious as to why. Ineffective range and aim time, most of the time the units using them are spotted before they can fire them whether it be heavy cover or medium cover and there is no recon. Also if they do happen to get into range any tank for example will be able to aim and shoot before the unit can fire their panzerfaust and thus get pinned before use

The aim time hasn't been reduced? It was bugged before (but I've seen that all at weapons and sometimes flamethrowers get stuck). For the rest, a panzerfaust that shot at 150m is just ridiculous. In reality it had more or less the same effective range of a grenade so 120m are ok, and they really make the difference in light woods. If the problem with the aiming time wasn't fixed (as reported by one of the last changelog) they have to do it, but I don't know why you think that it should become a sort of wundewaffe.

The Panzerfaust performs terrible in light woods. Equipped units usually get stunned before they are at least close within range. You call Panzerfaust with 150m range wunderwaffe, but line infantry equipped with PIAT and Bazooka, which have a range of 200m and 250m and penetration values that are up to 100mm more than real is absolutely fine for you.

[Elettricità sovieta]

Originally posted by ✠Cherrybomb✠:

Originally posted by Elettricità sovieta:

The aim time hasn't been reduced? It was bugged before (but I've seen that all at weapons and sometimes flamethrowers get stuck). For the rest, a panzerfaust that shot at 150m is just ridiculous. In reality it had more or less the same effective range of a grenade so 120m are ok, and they really make the difference in light woods. If the problem with the aiming time wasn't fixed (as reported by one of the last changelog) they have to do it, but I don't know why you think that it should become a sort of wundewaffe.

The Panzerfaust performs terrible in light woods. Equipped units usually get stunned before they are at least close within range. You call Panzerfaust with 150m range wunderwaffe, but line infantry equipped with PIAT and Bazooka, which have a range of 200m and 250m and penetration values that are up to 100mm more than real is absolutely fine for you.

Yes, it's realistic. Or at least the rapport between each of these weapons it's realistic, if we establish that 100m is the range of a grenade. And a panzerfaust has to be more similar to a grenade than to a bazooka.
Actually the only weapon in game that doesn't respect this rapport is a German one: the HHL-3, that IRL was a magnetic mine, used in desperate/almost suicidal attacks (even for the standards of common AT weapons) while in game can be thrown as a grenade. But gameplay wise is simple to understand why it works in this way, as it simple to understand why almost every self defence AT weapon is super-effective against any kind of target, considering how armor, LoS and cover system work.

[☧ Sextus ☧]

Originally posted by Elettricità sovieta:

Originally posted by Der Kaiser:

hope your kidding, it is very obvious as to why. Ineffective range and aim time, most of the time the units using them are spotted before they can fire them whether it be heavy cover or medium cover and there is no recon. Also if they do happen to get into range any tank for example will be able to aim and shoot before the unit can fire their panzerfaust and thus get pinned before use

The aim time hasn't been reduced? It was bugged before (but I've seen that all at weapons and sometimes flamethrowers get stuck). For the rest, a panzerfaust that shot at 150m is just ridiculous. In reality it had more or less the same effective range of a grenade so 120m are ok, and they really make the difference in light woods. If the problem with the aiming time wasn't fixed (as reported by one of the last changelog) they have to do it, but I don't know why you think that it should become a sort of wundewaffe.

In reality AT grenades cant be thrown further than 15-20 m.Even 20 m is too much AT grenades much heavier than normal grenade.Panzerfaust had range of 60m.Three times more range.Also from what ive read russian sappers used fausts against building and bunkers.Maybe we should give them ability use against buildings.Kinda like WG RD fire teams.That would be good buff for underused russian Saperi (PPSh) units.

[Elettricità sovieta]

Originally posted by Sextus:

Originally posted by Elettricità sovieta:

The aim time hasn't been reduced? It was bugged before (but I've seen that all at weapons and sometimes flamethrowers get stuck). For the rest, a panzerfaust that shot at 150m is just ridiculous. In reality it had more or less the same effective range of a grenade so 120m are ok, and they really make the difference in light woods. If the problem with the aiming time wasn't fixed (as reported by one of the last changelog) they have to do it, but I don't know why you think that it should become a sort of wundewaffe.

In reality AT grenades cant be thrown further than 15-20 m.Even 20 m is too much AT grenades much heavier than normal grenade.Panzerfaust had range of 60m.Three times more range.Also from what ive read russian sappers used fausts against building and bunkers.Maybe we should give them ability use against buildings.Kinda like WG RD fire teams.That would be good buff for underused russian Saperi (PPSh) units.

Yes, but for hit something at 60m with a panzerfaust in real life you would need a miracle, similar to the one needed to hit something with a PIAT at 150m (the max range of a PIAT is around 300m).

Maybe a panzerfaust could be useful to open a small breach on the wall or on the door of a bunker (as any other HEAT shell) but I don't see what could be the reason to employ it against the small village houses in game. And it's already hard to micro infantry units as they are, imagine being also forced to disable panzerfausts every time you enter in a town, to not waste them against a buildings, if you intend to preserve them as AT weapons.

[AK - ActionMambels]

Originally posted by BlackFoxSamaki:

[...] I know it might be really hard to get this through your brain, but games are only fun if both sides are capable of winning.

Would you please refrain from this disrespectful behavior! If you are unable to communicate properly, you should not be part of a factual discussion.

[Benito Vassilini]

Originally posted by Elettricità sovieta:

Originally posted by Sextus:

In reality AT grenades cant be thrown further than 15-20 m.Even 20 m is too much AT grenades much heavier than normal grenade.Panzerfaust had range of 60m.Three times more range.Also from what ive read russian sappers used fausts against building and bunkers.Maybe we should give them ability use against buildings.Kinda like WG RD fire teams.That would be good buff for underused russian Saperi (PPSh) units.

Yes, but for hit something at 60m with a panzerfaust in real life you would need a miracle, similar to the one needed to hit something with a PIAT at 150m (the max range of a PIAT is around 300m).

Maybe a panzerfaust could be useful to open a small breach on the wall or on the door of a bunker (as any other HEAT shell) but I don't see what could be the reason to employ it against the small village houses in game. And it's already hard to micro infantry units as they are, imagine being also forced to disable panzerfausts every time you enter in a town, to not waste them against a buildings, if you intend to preserve them as AT weapons.

The PIAT had a steel spring to fire the projectile, caused of this it wasnt able to fire longer distances that 110-120m. The Panzerfaust 60 was properly usable up to 80m with it sight and had an effective range of 150-200m against non moving targets.

[Elettricità sovieta]

Originally posted by Benito Vassilini:

Originally posted by Elettricità sovieta:

Yes, but for hit something at 60m with a panzerfaust in real life you would need a miracle, similar to the one needed to hit something with a PIAT at 150m (the max range of a PIAT is around 300m).

Maybe a panzerfaust could be useful to open a small breach on the wall or on the door of a bunker (as any other HEAT shell) but I don't see what could be the reason to employ it against the small village houses in game. And it's already hard to micro infantry units as they are, imagine being also forced to disable panzerfausts every time you enter in a town, to not waste them against a buildings, if you intend to preserve them as AT weapons.

The PIAT had a steel spring to fire the projectile, caused of this it wasnt able to fire longer distances that 110-120m. The Panzerfaust 60 was properly usable up to 80m with it sight and had an effective range of 150-200m against non moving targets.

Your statement is even more ridiculous than your name.

P. S. The number that distinguishes every panzerfaust model indicates the max distance (in metres) at which, 'theorically', it can be used. But in practical terms, by the point of view of user, the real difference between each model wasn't the range, but the muzzle velocity (and, of course, the warhead).

[✠Cherrybomb✠]

Originally posted by Elettricità sovieta:

Originally posted by Benito Vassilini:

The PIAT had a steel spring to fire the projectile, caused of this it wasnt able to fire longer distances that 110-120m. The Panzerfaust 60 was properly usable up to 80m with it sight and had an effective range of 150-200m against non moving targets.

Your statement is even more ridiculous than your name.

P. S. The number that distinguishes every panzerfaust model indicates the max distance (in metres) at which, 'theorically', it can be used. But in practical terms, by the point of view of user, the real difference between each model wasn't the range, but the muzzle velocity (and, of course, the warhead).

He's is right about the effective firing range of Panzerfaust. http://www.panzeraufgd.co.uk/images/panzerfaust/sights.jpg

[DasaKamov]

Originally posted by ShaxStar:

Sadly everything we’ve said here will be ignored, because we’re not part of the StRiKe TeAm.

Actually, these suggestions are likely to be ignored because they're wholly unnecessary, less about "balance" and more about "but Germany suffers!"

[dt Walter Robinson]

Originally posted by Benito Vassilini:

The PIAT had a steel spring to fire the projectile....

No this isn't correct - the PIAT used the same principle as a spigot mortar to fire it's projectile.

[Elettricità sovieta]

Originally posted by DasaKamov:

Originally posted by ShaxStar:

Sadly everything we’ve said here will be ignored, because we’re not part of the StRiKe TeAm.

Actually, these suggestions are likely to be ignored because they're wholly unnecessary, less about "balance" and more about "but Germany suffers!"

+1

[Gel]

Originally posted by DasaKamov:

Originally posted by ShaxStar:

Sadly everything we’ve said here will be ignored, because we’re not part of the StRiKe TeAm.

Actually, these suggestions are likely to be ignored because they're wholly unnecessary, less about "balance" and more about "but Germany suffers!"

+1

[hel45]

Originally posted by Elettricità sovieta:

Originally posted by Benito Vassilini:

The PIAT had a steel spring to fire the projectile, caused of this it wasnt able to fire longer distances that 110-120m. The Panzerfaust 60 was properly usable up to 80m with it sight and had an effective range of 150-200m against non moving targets.

Your statement is even more ridiculous than your name.

P. S. The number that distinguishes every panzerfaust model indicates the max distance (in metres) at which, 'theorically', it can be used. But in practical terms, by the point of view of user, the real difference between each model wasn't the range, but the muzzle velocity (and, of course, the warhead).

The number in the name shows the most effective range. Max range was double. So PzF60 was optimal at 60, ok and 80 and spray and pray at 120m.

I recommend reading the PzF&PzSchreck book from Osprey.