T34-85 and Tiger

[david_k_helm]

Good morning to all,

I wonder if the Tiger-E is not a bit underpowered. Duel of 3 of them with 3 T34-85 model 1944, front to front, end always with a Tiger defeat or at best with just one remaining. Given the number of T34, it is a very bad losses ratio. Although I am not such an experienced player, I don't think skill as something to do there, because it is just frontal engagement at 1900 or 1800 meters with equal forces.

And it is not a surprise if I look at the number : T34-85 model 1944 has (APCR ammo) a penetration of 180 mm, rate of fire of 6r/m, an accuracy of 55%, with a front armor of 110 mm.
Tiger E has a penetration of 165 mm, a rate of fire of 5r/m, and an accuracy of 40%, with a front armor of 125mm.
In summary : Tiger E has a slightly advantage in term of armor, nullified by worse penetration, rate of fire and accuracy.

I know that Tiger what not the invincible machine sold by german propaganda, it was not very mobile, and prone to breakdown (in fact, lot of the Tigers lost by the Whermacht were abandonned due to mechanical problems).
But it seems to me that in frontal duels, the outcome against even the latest model of T34 should be one-sided.
I am not a tank expert, but as far as remember, Tiger (and generally speaking german tanks) had better optics, and therefore should have the advantage of accuracy. I know that the Zis-S-53 canon was effective, so the penetration of T34-85 is probably ok, but the Tiger canon seems a little bit underrated. But most of all, front armor of T34-85 (1944) was not that high : I have read several time that it was ranged from 45 to 75 mm.

What do you think ?

[Noblesse Oblige [KG] ⳩]

I always thought the tiger 1 was a reliable machine. But the early Panthers and Tiger II was less so.

T34 tanks were churned out with tanks varying hugely in quality. Some had wind coming in weld holes!

Here is a link to the real penetration tables. Although shell types are not shown. NOTE that DFP = Drivers Frontal Plate.
https://i.imgur.com/pxprLao.jpg

Here is the video about the Tiger 1's reliability I watched a while back.
https://youtu.be/bBni1Nd9Ez8

[Committing Sudoku]

In theory the Tiger should actually be slightly winning a 3v3 engagement. Since T34 APCR deal 4 damage it requires 3 penetrating hits to kill 1 a tiger while the 88mm AP does 8 dmg so it only takes 2 penetrating shots to kill a T34. It is also important to note that the penetration drop off for the T34 is much harsher than the Tiger's so the tiger should be bouncing more often than the T34 bouncing at 2000 meters.

I think if the T34 has APCR shells then the extra rof and accuracy over the Tiger should make up for the damage difference and it means the engagement should be a 50-50 for both sides. If the T34 doesn't have APCR shells then the T34 will struggle to penetrate the Tiger at 2000 meters and the Tiger should easily win and only lose 1 tank.

On the note of armor the T34 did only have 45mm on the frontal plate but the 60 degree angling means it has an effective thickness of 90mm. The T34 turret has 90mm plating and if you consider the turret angling it would probably have an effective thickness of around 130mm. Take an average of the turret and hull armor and you get an in game armor thickness of 110mm.

[Algarde]

HMS Imperieuse eredeti hozzászólása:

I always thought the tiger 1 was a reliable machine. But the early Panthers and Tiger II was less so.

T34 tanks were churned out with tanks varying hugely in quality. Some had wind coming in weld holes!

Here is a link to the real penetration tables. Although shell types are not shown. NOTE that DFP = Drivers Frontal Plate.
https://i.imgur.com/pxprLao.jpg

Here is the video about the Tiger 1's reliability I watched a while back.
https://youtu.be/bBni1Nd9Ez8

Tiger 1 wasn't so unrielable at all, the real problem was the inexperienced crew in most cases (due to the shortage of men Germany were experiencing in addition to the extremely short time of training) who pushed some components to the limit on the field, such as the unfortunately famous transmission

[Ser Maks]

Yes, Tiger-E is currently underpowered, but for somewhat different reasons.

First: 55% acc in only for APCR shells, T-34/85 AP has 45% acc. Second - penetration, as shown on unit card, is at point-blank range, not at 2000 m(can be misleading, I know). Also, by 1944 Soviet optics were on par or even superior then German ones, due to relentless efforts on improving them and lend-lease aid. T-34/85 front is overpowered - 90-95mm front would be more accurate for late T-34/85, and early ones had armor protection similar to late T-34/76.

Returing to Tiger vs T-34/85 situation, primary reason for Tigers losing duels is recent Soviet tank/SPG 85mm penetration drop-off buff to 85mm AA levels, intended to counter KT spam in 10v10, with side effects of weakening Panthers and Tigers and turning T-34/85 into Soviet Panther.

[Magnus Aurelius, Bright Lord]

Early war, Germans had radio and better optic to the soviets, but is this true late war ?

[GerthQuake]

Hobotango eredeti hozzászólása:

Early war, Germans had radio and better optic to the soviets, but is this true late war ?

Soviet optics didn't really change through the war, but they were able to issue radios to many of the Tanks - instead of the flags they were using early in the war. lol

[Magnus Aurelius, Bright Lord]

the flags Jesus christ, those poor bastards.

[Ney]

Hobotango eredeti hozzászólása:

Early war, Germans had radio and better optic to the soviets, but is this true late war ?

I agree with you.
The german's optics are better in early war ( e.g: panzer 4 aus G, H, J in reality) and in late war (e.g: with Panther that it made for the long range combats).

But the devs search to balance the game, stay fun and close to the story. And it's difficult to combine the 3.
Because, too much balance, the game will be less close to the history, unreal and without any interest. And if the game is too much close to the story, the game will be not fun and unbalance.

If you look anti tank, (e.g: nashorn, jagpanzer, M10 etc...), they have a good optics contrary to tanks. It's less real but more balance for the game and give an interest for each kind of units.

I understand the devs for that and i think it's for that they will keep on going to patch the game for correcting bugs, found a balance between the story and a fun gameplay.

I think they will keep on going that in theirs next patch. And may be the match between tiger and t34-85 will be more balance.
In the history, i just know that the soviet for reply to Tiger 1, they creat the IS-2.
The t34-85 d-5t is a reply to the battle of koursk. It's a reply especially to the last panzer ( the panzer 4 ausf H). But the soviets also saw that it could pen Tiger 1 at 1000 m max in front armor...

So, may be the devs take that in consideration... :)

HF

[david_k_helm]

Thanks for your replies.

As I understand, the situation is not completely ludicrous, but at long range, Tiger E should be better than it is in game, for balance reason.

It is just that in my Orsha campaign, I pushed my Tiger batallion forward thinking "I will put them in frontal defence and none shall pass." I will better use my Nashorns, who proved themselves incredibly effective against IS2 (making me lightly assume that Tiger against T34 should be a cakewalk).

[Punisher_Reb]

Tiger 1 and Panther has been anemic for over a year. Every patch the Allies get stronger. Axis gets a patched strength, and the very next patch they get a hard nerf.

At this point they might as well take Axis out of the game. They've done everything to make sure they're not viable.

[ChargingSnail]

Punisher_Reb eredeti hozzászólása:

At this point they might as well take Axis out of the game.

That should do.

[Dealman]

Well, I mean, this has been the case in every single game I've played. T-34's has always been ridiculously glorified.

No doubt they were superior in the early stages of the war, but from what I've read(do correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not a history nut, but I like to read books by tank crews and such). The StuG was the first somewhat reliable response to the T-34.

Pretty sure the best part about the Tiger wasn't so much its armor, but more so its gun - a gun which in this game honestly feel very, very lackluster.

[Committing Sudoku]

Dealman eredeti hozzászólása:

Well, I mean, this has been the case in every single game I've played. T-34's has always been ridiculously glorified.

No doubt they were superior in the early stages of the war, but from what I've read(do correct me as I'm wrong as I'm not a history nut, but I like to read books by tank crews and such). The StuG was the first somewhat reliable response to the T-34.

Pretty sure the best part about the Tiger wasn't so much its armor, but more so its gun - a gun which in this game honestly feel very, very lackluster.

I think an amazing buff they can give the tiger is to make it's 88mm AP shells do 10 dmg so it can one shot medium tanks. Currently it does the same 8 dmg as a 75mm shell which I don't think makes much sense.

[Der Kaiser]

Committing Sudoku eredeti hozzászólása:

Dealman eredeti hozzászólása:

Well, I mean, this has been the case in every single game I've played. T-34's has always been ridiculously glorified.

No doubt they were superior in the early stages of the war, but from what I've read(do correct me as I'm wrong as I'm not a history nut, but I like to read books by tank crews and such). The StuG was the first somewhat reliable response to the T-34.

Pretty sure the best part about the Tiger wasn't so much its armor, but more so its gun - a gun which in this game honestly feel very, very lackluster.

I think an amazing buff they can give the tiger is to make it's 88mm AP shells do 10 dmg so it can one shot medium tanks. Currently it does the same 8 dmg as a 75mm shell which I don't think makes much sense.

funny i just made a mod changing tigers damage to 10

[Name]

david_k_helm eredeti hozzászólása:

Good morning to all,

I wonder if the Tiger-E is not a bit underpowered. Duel of 3 of them with 3 T34-85 model 1944, front to front, end always with a Tiger defeat or at best with just one remaining. Given the number of T34, it is a very bad losses ratio. Although I am not such an experienced player, I don't think skill as something to do there, because it is just frontal engagement at 1900 or 1800 meters with equal forces.

And it is not a surprise if I look at the number : T34-85 model 1944 has (APCR ammo) a penetration of 180 mm, rate of fire of 6r/m, an accuracy of 55%, with a front armor of 110 mm.
Tiger E has a penetration of 165 mm, a rate of fire of 5r/m, and an accuracy of 40%, with a front armor of 125mm.
In summary : Tiger E has a slightly advantage in term of armor, nullified by worse penetration, rate of fire and accuracy.

I know that Tiger what not the invincible machine sold by german propaganda, it was not very mobile, and prone to breakdown (in fact, lot of the Tigers lost by the Whermacht were abandonned due to mechanical problems).
But it seems to me that in frontal duels, the outcome against even the latest model of T34 should be one-sided.
I am not a tank expert, but as far as remember, Tiger (and generally speaking german tanks) had better optics, and therefore should have the advantage of accuracy. I know that the Zis-S-53 canon was effective, so the penetration of T34-85 is probably ok, but the Tiger canon seems a little bit underrated. But most of all, front armor of T34-85 (1944) was not that high : I have read several time that it was ranged from 45 to 75 mm.

What do you think ?

Pretty much all german tanks have been nerfed. I remember when KT’s were lethal and armor values meant something, when tigers were to be respected against t34s, and when panther G’s APCR shell could slice through is2 armor like a hot knife thru butter..

Sadly all the crying about over powered divisions is really just shifting the vulnrabilities and weaknesses from the allies back to the axis divisions.. instead of creating a balanced and fair environment..

I wish the developers of the red storm mod would come out with a 10v10 version. As the game is losing its realistic simulated edge and becoming a company of heroes unit spam fest...

Inb4 the tears and hate comments start coming in lol.