T34-85 and Tiger

[david_k_helm]

Good morning to all,

I wonder if the Tiger-E is not a bit underpowered. Duel of 3 of them with 3 T34-85 model 1944, front to front, end always with a Tiger defeat or at best with just one remaining. Given the number of T34, it is a very bad losses ratio. Although I am not such an experienced player, I don't think skill as something to do there, because it is just frontal engagement at 1900 or 1800 meters with equal forces.

And it is not a surprise if I look at the number : T34-85 model 1944 has (APCR ammo) a penetration of 180 mm, rate of fire of 6r/m, an accuracy of 55%, with a front armor of 110 mm.
Tiger E has a penetration of 165 mm, a rate of fire of 5r/m, and an accuracy of 40%, with a front armor of 125mm.
In summary : Tiger E has a slightly advantage in term of armor, nullified by worse penetration, rate of fire and accuracy.

I know that Tiger what not the invincible machine sold by german propaganda, it was not very mobile, and prone to breakdown (in fact, lot of the Tigers lost by the Whermacht were abandonned due to mechanical problems).
But it seems to me that in frontal duels, the outcome against even the latest model of T34 should be one-sided.
I am not a tank expert, but as far as remember, Tiger (and generally speaking german tanks) had better optics, and therefore should have the advantage of accuracy. I know that the Zis-S-53 canon was effective, so the penetration of T34-85 is probably ok, but the Tiger canon seems a little bit underrated. But most of all, front armor of T34-85 (1944) was not that high : I have read several time that it was ranged from 45 to 75 mm.

What do you think ?

[thugnightly]

Currently, Soviet APCR is bugged and overpowered. This will hopefully be changed back to the original status in the next patch along with the litany of other bugs that have made the game a pain the play.

There is absolutely no reason that the T-34-85 OB1944 should be murdering Tiger E's at max range. Either their price should be increased to be on par with the German counterparts or the pen values returned to the original value.

I like the idea of making the 88s to 10 DMG instead of 8 DMG. This would make tigers far more useful. In their current state, they aren't worth taking. You have a better chance of using Panzer 4s at 1000m against T-34-85 than using a Tiger E. Pz 4 has a better fire rate, cheaper, better vet curve, faster, and more reliable than tigers.

[sergejkorent]

If we take the top aces crews from the German side, then almost all of them fought on tigers. The Eugens have to adjust to the balance. German 88 mm was the best tank gun of the time. Statistics and stories of participants in those events confirm this.

[Kung Leonard den Barbariske]

Which 88 mm? Clearly Tiger 1 was nothing special in 1944, but Soviet tanks pre 44 are unable to counter it in the game and only TDs from 43 on are effective. All is in order.

[david_k_helm]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Kung Leonard den Barbariske:

Which 88 mm? Clearly Tiger 1 was nothing special in 1944, but Soviet tanks pre 44 are unable to counter it in the game and only TDs from 43 on are effective. All is in order.

I beg to differ. Although T34-85 model 1944 are indeed a match for Tiger, at long range Tiger should be better, due to combination of armor and gun. It is with a Tiger 1 that Otto Carius destroyed in Estonia and Latvia dozens of T34 in spring and summer 1944.

I understand that skirmish would be one-sided if German player enjoys its better equipment without the constraints Germany experienced in 1944. One solution could be to make soviet tanks, even IS-2, far cheaper than german counterparts, to reflect the vast superiority of soviet industry. But to make Tiger unable to kill a T34 in a single shot at range of 1500 meters is...well, quite unrealistic.

[Kersch]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von david_k_helm:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Kung Leonard den Barbariske:

Which 88 mm? Clearly Tiger 1 was nothing special in 1944, but Soviet tanks pre 44 are unable to counter it in the game and only TDs from 43 on are effective. All is in order.

I beg to differ. Although T34-85 model 1944 are indeed a match for Tiger, at long range Tiger should be better, due to combination of armor and gun. It is with a Tiger 1 that Otto Carius destroyed in Estonia and Latvia dozens of T34 in spring and summer 1944.

I understand that skirmish would be one-sided if German player enjoys its better equipment without the constraints Germany experienced in 1944. One solution could be to make soviet tanks, even IS-2, far cheaper than german counterparts, to reflect the vast superiority of soviet industry. But to make Tiger unable to kill a T34 in a single shot at range of 1500 meters is...well, quite unrealistic.

Well you also have to factor in better crew training and effective use of radio which also edged German tankers significantly above their Russian counter parts.

[Punisher_Reb]

Tiger 1s were still tough to handle in 1944. Panthers were great as well. The Panther G could smoke a IS2 at range. In game they have a BB gun, that bounce like basketballs, especially against the later tanks. They're practically useless.

[DasaKamov]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Punisher_Reb:

The Panther G could smoke a IS2 at range.

Yeah, you're going to need to provide a reliable source on that wild claim.

[nord2hammer]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Punisher_Reb:

Panthers were great as well. The Panther G could smoke a IS2 at range.

According to German reports a Panther could successfully engage a model '44 IS II at 1000 meters. It could,and was done, but it was a iffy chance-had to hit the right spot.
Rather a Tiger B or other vehicle mounting the 88L71 would be called upon for such long range engagements.

(also all three production models of the Panther,same cannon)

Ursprünglich geschrieben von DasaKamov:

Yeah, you're going to need to provide a reliable source on that wild claim.

Well the statement of "could" is true enough,so no "wild" claim there.
----


Edit: since i'm up still,going on 3am...

Heck
Eugen trying to balance- Let's go with the difference between a dead,raw,unfrozen chicken not penning and a same size dead,raw, but frozen chicken penning.
(Mythbuster's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_(2004_season)#Episode_10_–_"Chicken_Gun")
((weapon data: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_gun ))

A video clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHfejwdrMVQ

[Kyso4ek]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Dealman:

Well, I mean, this has been the case in every single game I've played. T-34's has always been ridiculously glorified.

No doubt they were superior in the early stages of the war, but from what I've read(do correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not a history nut, but I like to read books by tank crews and such). The StuG was the first somewhat reliable response to the T-34.

Pretty sure the best part about the Tiger wasn't so much its armor, but more so its gun - a gun which in this game honestly feel very, very lackluster.

In SD2 t34 are riduciluosle overnerfed with 30% acc out of nowhere though.

[Kyso4ek]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von david_k_helm:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Kung Leonard den Barbariske:

Which 88 mm? Clearly Tiger 1 was nothing special in 1944, but Soviet tanks pre 44 are unable to counter it in the game and only TDs from 43 on are effective. All is in order.

I beg to differ. Although T34-85 model 1944 are indeed a match for Tiger, at long range Tiger should be better, due to combination of armor and gun. It is with a Tiger 1 that Otto Carius destroyed in Estonia and Latvia dozens of T34 in spring and summer 1944.

which never happened IRL but ok.

[DasaKamov]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von nord2hammer:

Well the statement of "could" is true enough,so no "wild" claim there.

Er, ok. And an M8 Greyhound armored car "could" knock out a Tiger E from the rear with its 37mm cannon. An infantry sniper "could" shoot the pilot of an airplane mid-flight (as supposedly occurred in 1940, during the Imperial Japanese invasion of Manchuria). That does not mean it's likely, and no one would seriously say, "An M8 Greyhound could 'smoke' a Tiger E".

[nord2hammer]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von DasaKamov:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von nord2hammer:

Well the statement of "could" is true enough,so no "wild" claim there.

"An M8 Greyhound could 'smoke' a Tiger E".

History plays only a small part here....
Eugen constantly balancing the game - one iteration of the game the T-34/85 is firing thawed chickens that may or may not pen at range,and in the next patch it's firing frozen chickens that always pen at range.

(the Tiger I v M8 incident-reported by two US officers of different units during " The Bulge"- is a could've happened)

[Raoule]

True nord^^
If any single accident would define our game units relative strength, then we would have a very fictional one for sure. I get the the need of making the game more fun in competitive mode about much needed balance too, its only the way they have implemented it which isnt optimal imo.
This T34-85 performance buff was just not the best way to do it. The feedback shows, its common ground that the same could have been achieved about a price reduction and a more spammy use of T34.

Should be balanced enough and also kinda accurate as possible too.

[Pete]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Algarde:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von HMS Imperieuse:

I always thought the tiger 1 was a reliable machine. But the early Panthers and Tiger II was less so.

T34 tanks were churned out with tanks varying hugely in quality. Some had wind coming in weld holes!

Here is a link to the real penetration tables. Although shell types are not shown. NOTE that DFP = Drivers Frontal Plate.
https://i.imgur.com/pxprLao.jpg

Here is the video about the Tiger 1's reliability I watched a while back.
https://youtu.be/bBni1Nd9Ez8

Tiger 1 wasn't so unrielable at all, the real problem was the inexperienced crew in most cases (due to the shortage of men Germany were experiencing in addition to the extremely short time of training) who pushed some components to the limit on the field, such as the unfortunately famous transmission

Actually they did not gave out their best tanks to noobs until very very late in the war.

[Punisher_Reb]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von DasaKamov:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Punisher_Reb:

The Panther G could smoke a IS2 at range.

Yeah, you're going to need to provide a reliable source on that wild claim.

They could penetrate at around 600 meters, and the IS2 could knock out A Panther at 1300-1400 meters. In game the IS2 knocks them out at much max range, and the Panther might as well have a pop gun.