100m machine gun range work is ridiculous

[Name]

Why can't mg34's and mg42's when stationary (* not moving *) fire at enemy infantry that are ≤ 100 meters / 328 feet away? This distance is damn near the length of a football field and you're telling me my non-moving infantry can't use their guns?

I was so excited for the Toulons Kriegs Marine Boot Besatzung units with their 3x mg34 load out but now I'm not so sure I'll have a use for them. You've essentially turned an expensive 35 point squad into a worthless riflemen squad with 5 mp40 bearing and 5 k98 bearing infantry able to engage targets in dense forest. Against avtomachiki and other PPSH bearing squads, they will get decimated within seconds.

I can understand mg34's and mg42's not being able to fire on the move by infantry, but for the infantry not being allowed to engage infantry at less than 100meter range with the machine gun is unbelievable.

[seashell]

Diposting pertama kali oleh The Autistic Squirrel:

An odd question, can you force an MG to attack "ground" just beyond that 100m mark and still have them hitting infantry that might stay into that path of rounds?

um i don't think bullets are explosive but you could try against ai

[Thewood]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Apofis:

Diposting pertama kali oleh NIXON III:

Can someone explain what the actual purpouse of the change is? I don't understand why this is need.

Otherwise you cant have high suppresion LMG on range and balanced cqc since acc is scaling due to distance. So you end up with ~40% acc LMG 42 on 100 m which melts inf.

So is that how the Allies won in WW2? They just have the devs change something.

I still don't get why having to change something that synchs with the way things work in the world. An MG42 with sufficient ammo should be a deadly challenge against infantry in the open at short range. At 100m, you should be able to suppress them and use fire and movement to get closer.

This change is either compensating for a poorly designed system or players who don't know tactics.

[Noblesse Oblige [KG] ⳩]

Diposting pertama kali oleh EUG MadMat:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Hauptmann:

100m machine gun range work is ridiculous

As always, actually testing the change before making peremptory comments might be a good idea.

Once tested, you'll realize that ingame, 100m almost see units on top of one another.

I understand the need for this. Because Machine guns would prevent other infantry from closing and being mobile at what in this game is essentially the "last charge to the target" phase.

Is the explanation for this perhaps an exagerrated abstract to explain that in close range combat Machine guns (LMG, GPMG and heavier) cannot turn as fast or fire at their full rate for suppression. The squads start to be much more mobile and separated after contact in the 100m space. Normally in any other game this space would be more like 20m. Where an MG would have to redeploy on a different angle in a different position off a bipod or tripod, rifles, smgs and assault rifles are pretty much insta turn to engage. Where machine guns cannot engage multiple targets all over the place rifles, smgs and assault rifles are still effective. Of course SD2 has squads clumped together for convenience with no formation options, so I can kinda go for the abstraction. Certainly clearing houses with machine guns is silly.

However I would say that perhaps LMGs like Brens should be 50m to reflect their ease of handling at closer ranges.

Also how come the MG stats do not reflect 100m-750m to show the starting range gunners will fire at?

[Rabidnid]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Norska ⳩:

Is the explanation for this perhaps an exagerrated abstract to explain that in close range combat Machine guns (LMG, GPMG and heavier) cannot turn as fast or fire at their full rate for suppression.

There is no justification, it is to deal with way that accuracy improves as ranges become shorter. Within 100 metres LMGs were too effective, and rather than a complete re-write of the accuracy tables, the solution adopted was to limit them to 100 metres and beyond. This was the same solution as used in SD44 and was known successful workaround.

[Noblesse Oblige [KG] ⳩]

♥♥♥ that their is not something in the code that just lets them CAP deadliness of various weapons.

I think perhaps they should have a setup time for machine guns, at least the time it takes to jump on the ground, get your number 2 feeding and connecting more ammo and aiming/sighting. Machine guns do not fire on the move atm do they? That way defensive fire would be appropriately deadly but jumping from building to building or moving to position would not instantly be deadly.

[MR. LOOSE MOOSE]

I USED SCIENCE TO ANALYSE THE DISTANCE AND AFTER REVIEWING THE DATA, I CONCLUDED THAT THE 100m RANGE IS AN INTERESTING MECHANIC IN THE SENSE THAT NOW LONG RANGE NEEDS CLOSE SUPPORT, SO IT CREATES MORE DYNAMICS IN THE FIELD. THE MG SQUAD THO SHOULD HAVE HAND PISTOLS OR SOMETHING MINOR TO DEFEND WITH SO A 1 MAN SQUAD DOESNT OVERRUN A FULL MG TEAM BECAUSE OF A 100m RULE, OR FIST FIGHT

[seashell]

just cap the accuracy curve at short range or make the aim time a bit longer
now i just use halftracks to provide the mg and only use squads with mgs that shoot under 100

[Elettricità sovieta]

But... why? you talk about the mg's limitation as it has completely changed the meta or the gameplay. Seriously? the only thing that has changed is that now in a cqc combat between line infantries their weaponry counts much more than before, when mg was the only thing that mattered and flattened everything else. Now it's much more important to have an smg, or semi-automatic rifles rather than bolt action, and so on, and the game seems to me to have simply become more deep and interesting. For the rest, this is a really small change, and an mg squads were the worst choice for cqc combat even before, and one or two mgs for sure have never stopped and smg squad, a peoneer squad or a flamethrower at 100m.

[kdragoon]

100m minimum range is not that of a big deal, but the actual big deal is that the German lmgs are vastly better than others and over-performing.

[Elettricità sovieta]

Diposting pertama kali oleh kdragoon:

100m minimum range is not that of a big deal, but the actual big deal is that the German lmgs are vastly better than others and over-performing.

that's true, but they have nerfed pzgren prices, so maybe it's a bit better now. In any case we should also say that soviet line inf. is now generally better than german one in cqc, so maybe it could work even as it is now.

[Siokawsi]

Diposting pertama kali oleh DasaKamov:

It's an abstraction, sacrificing realism for the sake of gameplay. Dedicated CQC squads were underperforming in the area they should excel in (engagements under 100m). Now, pioneer squads with all-smg loadouts will stand a chance against rifle squads.

Also, this isn't some earth-shattering change to the meta. The "MG minimum range" mechanic also existed in SD: Normandy, and people didn't mind it then.

Very good point DasaKamov that most seem to not understand or appreciate it; selective hearing from some in the community it appears because this has to be said over & over.

I think it worked great in SD 44 & thus another reason why I play SD 44 more atm.

I love the graphics & improvements of SD2, but without the awesome "ShatrasGamePlayMod2" mod I would not be playing SD 2 at all. But the most recent rework patches are nice IMO; an improvement to the SD 2 Vanilla Experience.

[Noblesse Oblige [KG] ⳩]

Diposting pertama kali oleh KListTrps:

Diposting pertama kali oleh DasaKamov:

It's an abstraction, sacrificing realism for the sake of gameplay. Dedicated CQC squads were underperforming in the area they should excel in (engagements under 100m). Now, pioneer squads with all-smg loadouts will stand a chance against rifle squads.

Also, this isn't some earth-shattering change to the meta. The "MG minimum range" mechanic also existed in SD: Normandy, and people didn't mind it then.

Very good point DasaKamov that most seem to not understand or appreciate it; selective hearing from some in the community it appears because this has to be said over & over.

I think it worked great in SD 44 & thus another reason why I play SD 44 more atm.

I love the graphics & improvements of SD2, but without the awesome "ShatrasGamePlayMod2" mod I would not be playing SD 2 at all. But the most recent rework patches are nice IMO; an improvement to the SD 2 Vanilla Experience.

Eugen have always managed to keep their games as realistic as possible with as little abstraction or silly gimics like skill trees as possible. Of course they should strive to keep the game that way. The 100m limitation for machine guns leans in the direction of company of heroes or other games that are more themed in a historical setting than serious about suspending intelligent peoples disbelief. Eugen games are essentially accessible wargames rather than simple rock, paper, scissors BALANCE pure strategy games that most turn into.
For the most part my belief is suspended to the point where my knowledge of history is suspended enough to enjoy the game. It would be nice to have a feasable explanation to keep it that way or they risk losing my interest. I do not want to play pokemon or DOTA, I want to play a ww2 game where I can enjoy a game with my friends of up to 20 people!

[Noblesse Oblige [KG] ⳩]

Apparently Machine guns like BREN guns are not affected by the 100m minimum distance before firing rule. I cannot see anywhere in the stats that reflect the min distance rule (should be 100-750m for the mg34 for instance but only says 750m) so that I can see which machine guns are affected and which are not.

Anybody point me in the right direction for finding out?

[Rabidnid]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Norska ⳩:

Apparently Machine guns like BREN guns are not affected by the 100m minimum distance before firing rule. I cannot see anywhere in the stats that reflect the min distance rule (should be 100-750m for the mg34 for instance but only says 750m) so that I can see which machine guns are affected and which are not.

Anybody point me in the right direction for finding out?

In there description if they are automatic rifle they will still fire within 100 metres. So BREN, BAR, ZB26/30 all fire within 100 metres.

[Noblesse Oblige [KG] ⳩]

A Bren gun is a LMG. But I will take that as meaning any machine gun with a magazine has no 100m limit. I seem to remember that mg34 and mg42 also had magazines that were commonly used. Perhaps they could incorporate them into the game for the germans to have some machine guns for close range (sub 100m work).

I will now look out for the term automatic rifle in the SD2 description though.