Are IS-2s overpowered?

[?]

So I have been trying to learn how to play with armor, and have been playing with the 5th Panzer. It seems that my games go well until I run into an IS2, sometimes in phase A, which invariaby destroys my tigers and panthers.

Now it could be that Im not fighting these IS2s very well, and any advice would be appreciated-- but isnt it wrong that IS2s in this game outclass panthers and tigers? I believe Otto Carius knocked out an entire platoon of IS2s single handedly with his Tiger.

[chantodos]

Any division has its strong and weakness of course. You should not expect any single german division has all kinds of weapon that you want it to have.

What makes 21 standout is far beyond what you said: a various of fast scout cars, shermans, a combination of MLRS, 15cm SPG and heavy off-map arty, heavy fighter bomber, cluster planes. The only
weakness that 21 panzer have is air defense.

Be aware that I am talking on the basis of 1v1. In 1v1 even a regular scout tank like aufr panzer 4J is hard to be destroyed.

[Rabidnid]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Lewis Nixon III:

Of course the Panther could pentrate beyond 400 meters, dont be ridiculous. If you have a good source on this then lets see it.

According to wikipedias chart, the 7.5 cm KwK 42 L/70 penetrates 234 mm of armour at 500 meters!

Well a 50% chance of an APCR round penetrating 234 mm of armour of perpendicular armour when all the armour on the IS 2 is either curved or sloped sure does translate into immunity beyond 400 metres.

Any hit beyond about 35 degrees is already losing effectiveness and beyond 45 degrees will bounce off. There is a reason the soviets went for a pointed bare penetrator even at the cost of penetration, it was more effective and high angles of attack.

[?]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Rabidnid:

Well a 50% chance of an APCR round penetrating 234 mm of armour of perpendicular armour when all the armour on the IS 2 is either curved or sloped sure does translate into immunity beyond 400 metres.

It sure doesn't, because the IS 2 only has 100mm of frontal amor, sloped at 30 degrees on the lower glacis plate, and 60 degrees on the front hull.

Using a relative armor calculator at panzerworld.com, I found that 100mm of armor sloped at 30 degrees gives you 200mm of protection, however, at 60 degree the IS2 only had 115mm of effective armor on the front hull!

The source you were thinking of must have been referring to the gun mantlet of the IS 2, the most armored part of the tank, which had 155mm of rounded armor. Needless to say, german tankers would not be aiming for this area, at least not at long ranges.

From the IS2 wiki:

"According to the Wa Pruef 1 report..." (the report that you were most likely referring to) "...at 30 degree obliquity....A Panther had to close to 600 m to guarantee penetration of the IS-2's frontal armor (The Panther's 75 mm gun could penetrate the IS-2 model 1943's mantlet from 400 m, front turret from 800 m , and driver's front plate from 600 m."

So you are correct only if the Panther is shooting at the gun mantlet from a 30 degree angle.

This Wa Pruef 1 report was made from testing done in 1944, and is cited in numerous web pages and books.

The same report also has the armor of the Tiger and Panther tanks standing up to the 122mm gun much better than in SD2, where the armor does not stand up at any range.

But most importantly is this:

"According to Steven Zaloga, the IS-2 and Tiger I could knock each other out in normal combat distances below 1,000 m (1,100 yd). At any range, the performance of each tank against each other was dependent on the crew and combat situation."

[Zaloga, Steven (1994). IS-2 Heavy Tank 1944-73. Osprey. p. 12.]

That is exactly what I said earlier, and it is not modelled accurately in the game.

[omar_uav]

Początkowo opublikowane przez chantodos:

Any division has its strong and weakness of course. You should not expect any single german division has all kinds of weapon that you want it to have.

What makes 21 standout is far beyond what you said: a various of fast scout cars, shermans, a combination of MLRS, 15cm SPG and heavy off-map arty, heavy fighter bomber, cluster planes. The only
weakness that 21 panzer have is air defense.

Be aware that I am talking on the basis of 1v1. In 1v1 even a regular scout tank like aufr panzer 4J is hard to be destroyed.

well lot of tank divisions have better options


lot of divisions has various and even better fast scout cars, even 25th panzer grenadier division got various scout cars, and panzer lehr got the puma which is the best armored scout.

in case of rocket Arty
21 panzer Rocket Arty, is expensive 120 point , slow , fires lot of rockets at long salvo which it always get countered even with 152mm, although its armored with 15 armor points but its not enough

116th panzer, panzer lehr , both have much better Rocket Arty, panzerwerfer and nebelwerfer 42

off-map is equal exactly to 5th panzer off-map , and its not heavy you need to see 116 panzer for off-map they got 150mm with even smoke barrage and 380mm, fighter bomber in current state are used when the opponent got light AA, and incase most Allied division got 37mm its barely useful

and the cluster AT its the worst in the game at the time, with every increase of suppression it increase its spread it can increase up to 500 meter spread!
not a single Cluster AT plane at the game acts like this except the 21st one.

as for the SPG the loraine takes less ammo,moves slower than wespe also 15 points less armored.

and as sdfkz 135/1 150mm , its range is limited and less accurate than hummel, its also slower and less armored than hummel.

[Quax]

As Lewis Nixon III statet with clear sources:

IS2 is not correct modelled in SD2.

Even the reloadtime, with 4 rounds, is doublespeed ingame.

[chantodos]

Początkowo opublikowane przez omar_uav:

Początkowo opublikowane przez chantodos:

Any division has its strong and weakness of course. You should not expect any single german division has all kinds of weapon that you want it to have.

What makes 21 standout is far beyond what you said: a various of fast scout cars, shermans, a combination of MLRS, 15cm SPG and heavy off-map arty, heavy fighter bomber, cluster planes. The only
weakness that 21 panzer have is air defense.

Be aware that I am talking on the basis of 1v1. In 1v1 even a regular scout tank like aufr panzer 4J is hard to be destroyed.

well lot of tank divisions have better options


lot of divisions has various and even better fast scout cars, even 25th panzer grenadier division got various scout cars, and panzer lehr got the puma which is the best armored scout.

in case of rocket Arty
21 panzer Rocket Arty, is expensive 120 point , slow , fires lot of rockets at long salvo which it always get countered even with 152mm, although its armored with 15 armor points but its not enough

116th panzer, panzer lehr , both have much better Rocket Arty, panzerwerfer and nebelwerfer 42

off-map is equal exactly to 5th panzer off-map , and its not heavy you need to see 116 panzer for off-map they got 150mm with even smoke barrage and 380mm, fighter bomber in current state are used when the opponent got light AA, and incase most Allied division got 37mm its barely useful

and the cluster AT its the worst in the game at the time, with every increase of suppression it increase its spread it can increase up to 500 meter spread!
not a single Cluster AT plane at the game acts like this except the 21st one.

as for the SPG the loraine takes less ammo,moves slower than wespe also 15 points less armored.

and as sdfkz 135/1 150mm , its range is limited and less accurate than hummel, its also slower and less armored than hummel.

Well. You are simply comparing the units in isolation and I have to say this kind of comparison is meaningless because it is not fair. You are comparing what other divisions have to what 21. panzer doesn’t have and then says other axis divisions are better. If this kind of logic is sound, then I can say 21. panzer has brummbar and 116 panzer does not have, so 21. panzer is better than 116.panzer. However, the logic is not safe and sound. This game is balanced around 1v1 (mostly ranked games), and in 1v1, what is most important is the diversity of a division, not whether a division has the best scout car or best-what-so-ever. Maybe 21.panzer does not have the best SPG. Maybe 21.panzer does not have the best MLRS. Maybe 21.panzer does not have the best fighter-bomber. Maybe it has nothing the best(except KT), but it has decent SPG, decent MLRS and decent fighter-bomber. 21.panzer is almost all-rounded in axis, like Hermann Goring tank division. Be aware that all-rounded does not mean the best, but it is enough to make the 21.panzer one of the strongest division in 1v1.

Like I said above, what I claimed is based on my 1v1 experience, not team games. I never play team games because I know this game is not designed around team games. And it seems that you play team games far more than 1v1. So you might still disagree with me because we are not talking on the same basis. If you still want to further this discussion in 1v1 basis, I am glad to talk more. But if you insist in team games, then no meaningful conclusion can be made.

[omar_uav]

Początkowo opublikowane przez chantodos:

Well. You are simply comparing the units in isolation and I have to say this kind of comparison is meaningless because it is not fair. You are comparing what other divisions have to what 21. panzer doesn’t have and then says other axis divisions are better. If this kind of logic is sound, then I can say 21. panzer has brummbar and 116 panzer does not have, so 21. panzer is better than 116.panzer. However, the logic is not safe and sound. This game is balanced around 1v1 (mostly ranked games), and in 1v1, what is most important is the diversity of a division, not whether a division has the best scout car or best-what-so-ever. Maybe 21.panzer does not have the best SPG. Maybe 21.panzer does not have the best MLRS. Maybe 21.panzer does not have the best fighter-bomber. Maybe it has nothing the best(except KT), but it has decent SPG, decent MLRS and decent fighter-bomber. 21.panzer is almost all-rounded in axis, like Hermann Goring tank division. Be aware that all-rounded does not mean the best, but it is enough to make the 21.panzer one of the strongest division in 1v1.

Like I said above, what I claimed is based on my 1v1 experience, not team games. I never play team games because I know this game is not designed around team games. And it seems that you play team games far more than 1v1. So you might still disagree with me because we are not talking on the same basis. If you still want to further this discussion in 1v1 basis, I am glad to talk more. But if you insist in team games, then no meaningful conclusion can be made.

i didnt say anything about team games only in my recent post.

everything in the 21st is just mediocre
except the PAK43 KT and Brummbar

yeah the division got diversity but not as much as other diverse Panzer divisions

in matter of diversity 5th panzer is most diverse division but everything they have is just mediocre

from BMW recon to Panther recon
PZ IV to Panther G
from 20mm AA to 88mm
105mm lefh to hummel

a pretty diverse division.

[chantodos]

Początkowo opublikowane przez omar_uav:

Początkowo opublikowane przez chantodos:

Well. You are simply comparing the units in isolation and I have to say this kind of comparison is meaningless because it is not fair. You are comparing what other divisions have to what 21. panzer doesn’t have and then says other axis divisions are better. If this kind of logic is sound, then I can say 21. panzer has brummbar and 116 panzer does not have, so 21. panzer is better than 116.panzer. However, the logic is not safe and sound. This game is balanced around 1v1 (mostly ranked games), and in 1v1, what is most important is the diversity of a division, not whether a division has the best scout car or best-what-so-ever. Maybe 21.panzer does not have the best SPG. Maybe 21.panzer does not have the best MLRS. Maybe 21.panzer does not have the best fighter-bomber. Maybe it has nothing the best(except KT), but it has decent SPG, decent MLRS and decent fighter-bomber. 21.panzer is almost all-rounded in axis, like Hermann Goring tank division. Be aware that all-rounded does not mean the best, but it is enough to make the 21.panzer one of the strongest division in 1v1.

Like I said above, what I claimed is based on my 1v1 experience, not team games. I never play team games because I know this game is not designed around team games. And it seems that you play team games far more than 1v1. So you might still disagree with me because we are not talking on the same basis. If you still want to further this discussion in 1v1 basis, I am glad to talk more. But if you insist in team games, then no meaningful conclusion can be made.

i didnt say anything about team games only in my recent post.

everything in the 21st is just mediocre
except the PAK43 KT and Brummbar

yeah the division got diversity but not as much as other diverse Panzer divisions

in matter of diversity 5th panzer is most diverse division but everything they have is just mediocre

from BMW recon to Panther recon
PZ IV to Panther G
from 20mm AA to 88mm
105mm lefh to hummel

a pretty diverse division.

So our discussion is not about the facts, but your feelings.

It is obvious that you and I have different definition of diversity. My definition is that 21.panzer is capable of dealing with all kind of enemy threat, from armored vehicles to is2. It is also obvious that we have different definition of mediocre.

[omar_uav]

mediocre compared to any panzer division

Arty wise?
116 ,Lehr,5th better

Tank wise?
21st better due to KT

AT
21st misses PAK36.PAK40
but has PAK38,PAK43


and so on

[chantodos]

Początkowo opublikowane przez omar_uav:

mediocre compared to any panzer division

Arty wise?
116 ,Lehr,5th better

Tank wise?
21st better due to KT

AT
21st misses PAK36.PAK40
but has PAK38,PAK43


and so on

Like I said, these comparisons are meaningless, your definition is different from mine.

[Kyso4ek]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Lewis Nixon III:

Of course the Panther could pentrate beyond 400 meters, dont be ridiculous. If you have a good source on this then lets see it.

According to wikipedias chart, the 7.5 cm KwK 42 L/70 penetrates 234 mm of armour at 500 meters!

Lol The panther got to be pretty lucky to do that and then you should understand the diffirence between a 75mm APCR penetration and 122mm APHE penetration. There are two diffirent worlds when it comes to crew survivability and vehicle repairs after penetration. In short it might penetrate when lucky but it does not do the damage required. After a 122mm the vehicle is irrecoverable. Also APCR fails if it hits any slope so the hit needs to be really lucky on that curved armor.
In game this is simulated via AP damage. And effectively makes panther ineffective against the IS2 in the large scale of things. Which happened IRL as well.

[Kyso4ek]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Lewis Nixon III:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Rabidnid:

Actually it's called historical accuracy. The IS-2 was designed as a hard counter to panthers and tiger 1s

I'm not sure that it is historically accurate. From what I gather, the Tiger I could penetrate the IS 2 at ranges of less than 1,000 meters.

Maybe from like 500 meters. Likewise the 85 mm could penetrate tigers but in the end it was not deemed efficient enough because it was only effective below like 800 m. Thats when and why the 122 mm got into play.
All in all Tigers were not effective enough against the IS and ISU vehicles.

[Rabidnid]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Kyso4ek:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Lewis Nixon III:

I'm not sure that it is historically accurate. From what I gather, the Tiger I could penetrate the IS 2 at ranges of less than 1,000 meters.

Maybe from like 500 meters. Likewise the 85 mm could penetrate tigers but in the end it was not deemed efficient enough because it was only effective below like 800 m. Thats when and why the 122 mm got into play.
All in all Tigers were not effective enough against the IS and ISU vehicles.

You won't get anywhere. They have their own made up reality which ignores angled armour and that armour penetration is a percentage chance in nazi calculations. It is for everybody else too but the nazis used 50% not 80%.

[Kyso4ek]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Rabidnid:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Kyso4ek:

Maybe from like 500 meters. Likewise the 85 mm could penetrate tigers but in the end it was not deemed efficient enough because it was only effective below like 800 m. Thats when and why the 122 mm got into play.
All in all Tigers were not effective enough against the IS and ISU vehicles.

You won't get anywhere. They have their own made up reality which ignores angled armour and that armour penetration is a percentage chance in nazi calculations. It is for everybody else too but the nazis used 50% not 80%.

You are correct on this one. I remember the patch in war thunder that drastically changed penetration values and it can be connected to exactly this: move from 80% to 50% criteria for soviet weapons. For example the 85 mm penetration increased from like 125 to 145 with this change. Before this patch the tiger 1 was pretty much immune to the soviet 85mm from even point blank range.

Likewise in the soviet documents which used 80% criteria the long 88 mm weapon has like 160-170 mm penetration instead of 230mm as far as i remember.

Another example is man of war assault squad 2 where the german guns are taken from 50% criteria and the soviet guns are taken with 80% criteria which of course makes soviet guns useless with IS 2 having the same 160mm penetration as a tiger 1 lol.

[?]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Rabidnid:

You won't get anywhere. They have their own made up reality which ignores angled armour and that armour penetration is a percentage chance in nazi calculations.

Rabnid, I resent this. My post very clearly accounted for angled armor. I even provided the link to a website that calculates effective armor thickness. The Wa Preuf 1 report tested firing on tanks angled at 30 degrees.

Which one of us is living in reality? I am trying to be accurate and cite legitimate sources, whereas you are just being obnoxious and lack basic reading comprehension.