Are IS-2s overpowered?

[Lewis Nixon]

So I have been trying to learn how to play with armor, and have been playing with the 5th Panzer. It seems that my games go well until I run into an IS2, sometimes in phase A, which invariaby destroys my tigers and panthers.

Now it could be that Im not fighting these IS2s very well, and any advice would be appreciated-- but isnt it wrong that IS2s in this game outclass panthers and tigers? I believe Otto Carius knocked out an entire platoon of IS2s single handedly with his Tiger.

[omar_uav]

no one wish for any division or army to be OP. except the cheesy.

the true issue and problem that developers issue is to balance between gameplay and historical accuracy, not every developer can do it ,but if you do it the game becomes a masterpiece.

I as for myself when playing with a KT when i lose it because i left it in the open unattended for long time i deserve to lose it, or when i dont get AA i deserve to lose it also!


but when i already have 12x 20mm , but still typhoon penetrates by AA defense here something called "frustration" takes place,and this thing is the main problem to why RTS games die. not just in eugen series in all RTS games.


when a player cant do a thing to a IS-2 because his division only support tigers and panthers nothing more "frustration" takes in.



I as for myself used to play Company of Heroes 2 for a long time , when ever a low player joins my lobby i would ask him to leave ,because in coh2 you cant see levels like here in SD2, but you can feel the level somehow.


there is no taste of victory if an easy game

[Lewis Nixon]

To be fair, Omar, you cant rely on 20mms alone for lockdown air defense. I am on your side, a lot of divisions lack enough IS 2 counters.

After playing more games recently, I find this is mainly an issue in 10v10s, where its hard to breakthrough anywhere, and theres always an IS2 lurking behind every corner. I can see how in a 1v1, having lots of panthers spread across the map can be an effective counter. But again, the IS2 availabilty is really high, and comparatively inexpensive.

[omar_uav]

Originally posted by Lewis Nixon III:

To be fair, Omar, you cant rely on 20mms alone for lockdown air defense. I am on your side, a lot of divisions lack enough IS 2 counters.

After playing more games recently, I find this is mainly an issue in 10v10s, where its hard to breakthrough anywhere, and theres always an IS2 lurking behind every corner. I can see how in a 1v1, having lots of panthers spread across the map can be an effective counter. But again, the IS2 availabilty is really high, and comparatively inexpensive.

at curret state , only 37mm is worth it

88 wastes ammo and suppress only rarely take them down,flak 38 20 mm is most common for most panzer division but it barely does a thing


best AA is the 37mm and 40mms , but rare in german divisions.



and also when ever you say IS-2 and you have Panther G they would tell you get in close , but even if you do so you can just shot 1 APCR then your panther G is dead.

[GuanYu]

I am still a little unclear on the effects of APCR. It increases penetration chance at the cost of damage? I assume you just want to use it on heavy tanks when you can get up close and personal with it? Would you want to use APCR at max range?
On the state of balance I think IS2 is in an OK spot, the problem is that maneuver warfare is pretty much impossible with such narrow maps and 100% accurate and immediate information that it just becomes a slugfest/arty war and if you dont have a tank that can act as a bullet sponge/anchor than you are just going to get run over. 21st should be a non-DLC deck as its the only one that can give IS-2 divisions to pause. Personally I would like to see heavy tanks not be able to be called in during A phase. Maybe you could introduce like a extended aiming mechanic where AT guns or tanks could take an extended period of time to lineup like a critical shot on treads or some weak spot on enemy tank to disable it or stun it etc?

[GuanYu]

o ya and 5th panzer is super underwhelming dont play em unless you like the challenge. Really would like to see some more varied maps/game modes as then that might open up the playstyles a bit more.

[Rabidnid]

Originally posted by Colonel - Commissar Ibram Gaunt:

I am still a little unclear on the effects of APCR. It increases penetration chance at the cost of damage? I assume you just want to use it on heavy tanks when you can get up close and personal with it? Would you want to use APCR at max range?
On the state of balance I think IS2 is in an OK spot, the problem is that maneuver warfare is pretty much impossible with such narrow maps and 100% accurate and immediate information that it just becomes a slugfest/arty war and if you dont have a tank that can act as a bullet sponge/anchor than you are just going to get run over. 21st should be a non-DLC deck as its the only one that can give IS-2 divisions to pause. Personally I would like to see heavy tanks not be able to be called in during A phase. Maybe you could introduce like a extended aiming mechanic where AT guns or tanks could take an extended period of time to lineup like a critical shot on treads or some weak spot on enemy tank to disable it or stun it etc?

Basically till now you used it when there was no chance of the base AP round penetrating. Last major patch it became more or less useless because they reduced the chance of crits. This coming patch today or tomorrow will increase the damage of the APCR so it is an option for the most heavily armoured tanks.

Not being able to deal with IS-2s is a learn to play issue. The Russians built 3000 IS-2s and 4000 ISUs. Just be glad they don't get the same availability as panthers.

[Rabidnid]

Originally posted by Colonel - Commissar Ibram Gaunt:

o ya and 5th panzer is super underwhelming dont play em unless you like the challenge. Really would like to see some more varied maps/game modes as then that might open up the playstyles a bit more.

5th panzer is a very solid division. Again it's a learn to play issue.

[omar_uav]

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

Not being able to deal with IS-2s is a learn to play issue. The Russians built 3000 IS-2s and 4000 ISUs. Just be glad they don't get the same availability as panthers.

how armored and accurate and having a high ROF IS-2 is not historical accurate,


also , about 6000 panthers made in WW2 .
you cant compare a tank that 6000 pieces made vs a tank that is 3000 pieces made.

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

5th panzer is a very solid division. Again it's a learn to play issue.

whats solid about them?

Recon
3 slots for recon (lack all SPWS, not even in transport)

Infantry
normal panzer infantry nothing special.(PZGR leader misses SDFKZ 251/9 "Stummel")

[bTank/b]
bunch of Tigers and panthers useful against any tank below IS-2 , ISU-122, jumbo or even Churchill VII.
misses Fuhrer Panzer IV at phase B which would let you get 2-3 cards of only fuhrer panzer

Support
not a single special vehicle in support

Anti Tank
it have Pak36 and PAK40 , a good combination but still misses the pak38

Anti Air

the only excellent tab in the 5th panzer

whatever you need you got it
20mm towed, 20mm armored, 37mm , 88mm, flakvering

Artillery
no 150mm except 1 slot of Hummel.


Air
poor AIr, just some weak CAS, fighter bombers.

[Rabidnid]

Originally posted by omar_uav:

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

Not being able to deal with IS-2s is a learn to play issue. The Russians built 3000 IS-2s and 4000 ISUs. Just be glad they don't get the same availability as panthers.

how armored and accurate and having a high ROF IS-2 is not historical accurate,

Current ROF and pen are accurate, it;s the German tanks that are over modeled

Originally posted by omar_uav:

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

Not being able to deal with IS-2s is a learn to play issue. The Russians built 3000 IS-2s and 4000 ISUs. Just be glad they don't get the same availability as panthers.

also , about 6000 panthers made in WW2 .
you cant compare a tank that 6000 pieces made vs a tank that is 3000 pieces made.

Sure you can, for every tiger 2 and panther fielded there should be an IS-2 or ISU-122.

Give all the Russian tank corps 4/5 cards of IS-2s and every infantry division 2 or 3 cards of ISU-122s

Originally posted by omar_uav:

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

5th panzer is a very solid division. Again it's a learn to play issue.

whats solid about them?

You get all the panther variants including recon, tigers and 3 cards of pz IVs.

shrecks and 2 cards of Pak 40s which should be your only AT guns anyway

Support lacks the IG 18 which along with the lack of a/c is the only downside to the division.

You have HT mortars and off map which is all you should be using for artillery anyway.

Fighters are Fw-190s and you get the heavy gunned Me 410 if you think there is a point to CAS, though the Fw-190 fighter can do that as well.

German CAS planes are so bad the only ones worth taking are the cluster bombers and the 21 cm rocket fighters.

[Jam292]

The 5th panzer is the only German division having access to all the necessary units to execute a "panzerkeil" formation attack. Awesome to replicate for the history buffs. Tigers lead the charge, panthers protect flanks, panzer 4's deal with opposition the tiger's rolled past, hummels and wesps on direct fire missions destroy the defensive line, all while mechanized infantry charge and unload......anyway, that's how it's supposed to go.

[omar_uav]

Originally posted by Jam292:

The 5th panzer is the only German division having access to all the necessary units to execute a "panzerkeil" formation attack. Awesome to replicate for the history buffs. Tigers lead the charge, panthers protect flanks, panzer 4's deal with opposition the tiger's rolled past, hummels and wesps on direct fire missions destroy the defensive line, all while mechanized infantry charge and unload......anyway, that's how it's supposed to go.

not when 3 IS-2s

2-3 katyusha or andryusha going to show up.

[omar_uav]

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

Current ROF and pen are accurate, it;s the German tanks that are over modeled

the ROF is not accurate IS-2 turret is cramped up, the shell needs a propellant charge to work and then its equal to Tiger ROF ? how that is accurate?

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

Sure you can, for every tiger 2 and panther fielded there should be an IS-2 or ISU-122.

Give all the Russian tank corps 4/5 cards of IS-2s and every infantry division 2 or 3 cards of ISU-122s

then panther should pen IS-2 at 1800M and panther should increase its numbers per card,also increase its accuracy.

and last pak 43 88mm should kill IS-2s easily

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

You get all the panther variants including recon, tigers and 3 cards of pz IVs.

the divisions misses Panther D as normal variant

and all the thing you said i can find it in any other panther division.

and at last when churchill VII, jumbo ,IS-2,ISU-122 shows up i have nothing to do other than ready the memorial for my troops.

there is a new way to make fun of panther divisions they would keep shooting HE on your panther until it die by sherman spam or churchill spam.

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

shrecks and 2 cards of Pak 40s which should be your only AT guns anyway

non is worth it except the PAK40

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

You have HT mortars and off map which is all you should be using for artillery anyway.

will not help me when am going to play against 84th, "Scots" ,26th or 184th , i am going to need a useful arty not just mortar and observer, i agree the 173mm is a good observer but its a observer at last not a Arty i cant keep using it on everything, and things beyond 3km.

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

Fighters are Fw-190s and you get the heavy gunned Me 410 if you think there is a point to CAS, though the Fw-190 fighter can do that as well.

the 30mm on the ME410 is just useless act like 20mm and dies too quick for a CAS plane , 1x37 away 800meter from AO of the ME410 good bye to your plane, as for FW-140 its a good idea i do it myself,but comes in much less numbers and costs more.

[Rabidnid]

Originally posted by omar_uav:

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

You have HT mortars and off map which is all you should be using for artillery anyway.

will not help me when am going to play against 84th, "Scots" ,26th or 184th , i am going to need a useful arty not just mortar and observer, i agree the 173mm is a good observer but its a observer at last not a Arty i cant keep using it on everything, and things beyond 3km.

Well yeah because you stand around all game letting your opponent buy thousands of points of units. Normal people who play 1v1 to 3v3 can get buy with just mortars in a normal 20 to 30 minute game.

Originally posted by omar_uav:

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

Current ROF and pen are accurate, it;s the German tanks that are over modeled

the ROF is not accurate IS-2 turret is cramped up, the shell needs a propellant charge to work and then its equal to Tiger ROF ? how that is accurate?

You clearly have never seen the inside of a tiger or panther. The IS-2 had far more room to handle ammo.

Originally posted by omar_uav:

then panther should pen IS-2 at 1800M and panther should increase its numbers per card,also increase its accuracy.

and last pak 43 88mm should kill IS-2s easily

The Panther could penetrate 14 cm of armour at 1500 metres 50% of the time. That does not translate in to a useful penetration against the front of an IS-2 beyond 800 or so metres. Even the pak 43 could not penetrate consistently beyond 1200 metres.

No matter how much you wherboo the game is currently accurate

[AveragePetUser]

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

Originally posted by HMS Imperieuse (Destraex\Norska):

I remember when IS-2 tanks in game were so inaccurate as to be almost useless. Historically they simply did not have the optics that the germans had to fire as accurately I think? Now they do seem with no veterancy to get a lot of first time long range kills.

All the uncoated optics in WWII were terrible. The Russian optics were not bad by comparison and the IS-2 crews were heavily trained and each crew included 2 officers. If anything the 88 the 88 is over modelled for accuracy.

After 1940, russians bought their optics manufactured by the same manufacturer that made german sights. all tanks of models 1941 and forward are using the same quality of sight devices. The soviet tank doctrine however asked for much less magnification on most of their scopes. Soviets knew they had to engage at close range or extreme long range (using SPG, artillery etc) so they catered their 1941+ tank doctrine accordingly and the tank equipment matches it. Kv-1C, IS2 and SU-85m/100 are specifically the only tanks that I can think of that actually have really good magnification.

[omar_uav]

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

Well yeah because you stand around all game letting your opponent buy thousands of points of units. Normal people who play 1v1 to 3v3 can get buy with just mortars in a normal 20 to 30 minute game.

well i dont play 1v1 alot, but i had seen 152mm , preists , SU76M, but as for team games its just a Arty fest, you cant deny that, well if i and the opponent get the same point or a bit different how i can let him farm?

this is not a RTS game with capturing sectors and its not destruction mode.

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

You clearly have never seen the inside of a tiger or panther. The IS-2 had far more room to handle ammo.

yeah it has more room because it need to handle 122 mm Rounds!
with their propellant charges with them , if you say so its not cramped up why then it can only handle 20 rounds?

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

The Panther could penetrate 14 cm of armour at 1500 metres 50% of the time. That does not translate in to a useful penetration against the front of an IS-2 beyond 800 or so metres. Even the pak 43 could not penetrate consistently beyond 1200 metres.

IS-2 43 Armor is a mix of 100mm-120mm ,at angles 30-60 degrees , a Panther PG-40 can get 140mm at 1500m at 30 degree angle

PAK 43 got 132mm pen on 2000m at 30 degree angle , that is enough to go through IS-2 43 just as microwaved knife through butter, with PG39 not the APCR.

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

No matter how much you wherboo the game is currently accurate

no matter how much you russian bias warthunder players try, the game is not accurate in armored warfare, and tend mix gameplay balance with historical accuracy.