Analysis on game balancing

[lscander]

I have seen the trend of how the game is balanced through patches, seems like Eugen have got “GREAT IDEAS” from those who like Axis more than Allies. I’m providing my vision on game balancing, it will be highly based on logic analysis rather than some players’ own irrational opinions. Let’s start with some less controversial topics so we can process further.

For better reading experience, please go to this post https://steamcommunity.com/app/919640/discussions/0/1640919737480687042/

[acur1231]

SalzStange původně napsal:

lscander původně napsal:

I have seen the trend of how the game is balanced through patches, seems like Eugen have got “GREAT IDEAS” from those who like Axis more than Allies. I’m providing my vision on game balancing, it will be highly based on logic analysis rather than some players’ own irrational opinions. Let’s start with some less controversial topics so we can process further.

ya, su85 is to expensive. For sure

if you look into the 2 last patches you will easily find out that axis got nerfed a lot. it's pretty balanced now. ANd I know this. Since I play a lot.

There were so much big nerfs... to germans. Like the arty nerfs and so on. In one point I agree. the Us dision got maybe nerfed a bit to much. And ya also 9 divsion isn't that good..

Russia has AMAZING tanks. Germans have not the option to tankrush in 1 or b with tanks which are cheap AND have a strong armory.... btw. not that much like russia does. And ya i knwo that the german tanks are strong in c but then the game is often over.

Look at the aircrafts....... nuff said. While germans had historically a killingrate from 15:1 to russian aircrafts... in this game the russian paper aircrafts got buffed ALOT they are even stronger specially the later models.

Also look at the russian infantry... they are often also very strong and cost effcient. The flametrowers as sample. Or guardyia dp and so on. these are superb infantries. And ya the germas have good infantrie too. Pioneers as sample and sturmtruppen can be strong too if you know how to.but comapre the flametrowers as sample.

It's pretty balanced.

By 1944 the Luftwaffe was suffering. Ironically, the abundance of Soviet planes in the battle area allowed the German fighters to rack up pretty good kill/loss rates (though nowhere near 15:1, not sure where you pulled that number from), but it was definately not good for the Germans on the ground. The Soviets could rely on masses of CAS planes regularly, while the few German Stuka wings in the area where practically destroyed in the first few days.

Also, Soviet plane design matched the Germans by 1944. Il-2s were better than the underpowered Stukas and HS 129s, carrying more armament and being more survivable.

Soviet fighters such as the LA-5 and Yak-9 were every bit the equal of the FW 190 and ME 109. They even scored a few jet kills.

Soviet bombers, such as the PE-2 and TU-2, were faster and more able in combat than the plodding HE 111s and Doniers which made up a large part of the Luftwaffe's bomber capability. Only the Ju 88 was better.

[rankandfile]

Yeah, when people were complaining about the allied back to war divisions, it was pointed out that the eastern front soviet/german divisions look under-powered in comparison because they lack good choices in alot of ways. Instead of making the effort to make the base game divs more like the fun/interesting western divs, they just nerfed the ♥♥♥♥ outta them so that they all equally suck. Now that those obvious targets have been nerfed, they will nerf classes of units.

In my opinion the player count didn't crater because of the lack of tutorials, or bugs, or anything like that. Red dragon suffered most of the same issues and had a steep learning curve. Its the decks, they're just a bunch of bad choices with a few obvious good cards sprinkled in. People play for a few weeks, the deck builder gets stale, they leave.

[lscander]

SalzStange původně napsal:

lscander původně napsal:

I have seen the trend of how the game is balanced through patches, seems like Eugen have got “GREAT IDEAS” from those who like Axis more than Allies. I’m providing my vision on game balancing, it will be highly based on logic analysis rather than some players’ own irrational opinions. Let’s start with some less controversial topics so we can process further.

ya, su85 is to expensive. For sure

if you look into the 2 last patches you will easily find out that axis got nerfed a lot. it's pretty balanced now. ANd I know this. Since I play a lot.

There were so much big nerfs... to germans. Like the arty nerfs and so on. In one point I agree. the Us dision got maybe nerfed a bit to much. And ya also 9 divsion isn't that good..

Russia has AMAZING tanks. Germans have not the option to tankrush in 1 or b with tanks which are cheap AND have a strong armory.... btw. not that much like russia does. And ya i knwo that the german tanks are strong in c but then the game is often over.

Look at the aircrafts....... nuff said. While germans had historically a killingrate from 15:1 to russian aircrafts... in this game the russian paper aircrafts got buffed ALOT they are even stronger specially the later models.

Also look at the russian infantry... they are often also very strong and cost effcient. The flametrowers as sample. Or guardyia dp and so on. these are superb infantries. And ya the germas have good infantrie too. Pioneers as sample and sturmtruppen can be strong too if you know how to.but comapre the flametrowers as sample.

It's pretty balanced.

You do play a lot I see. I know what a 1v1 match like, pathetically weak AA, small amounts of scattered arty, easy to find holes in both sides' defense line, Soviet do works better in 1v1 match. But when being thrown into a larger battlefield? Soviet easier get overwhelmed by German's arty and planes, and air forces of their own can't penetrate German's strong AA. Infantry being overrun by Hungarians and MP44s, tanks being destroyed by Kingtigers or arty…… Anyway, its still good to hear some different voices, I hope to hear what you think after having reading through all my analysis.

[lscander]

Topic Two：Infantry Balancing
Well well well, how do I start with this one? Going for the latest patch then. The faust doesn’t cost more, huh? Strelki(DP) and Gvadyia(DP)( excuse me for simply call them Sk(DP) and Gd(DP) later) increased price to 30, what? The LMG34 and 42 increased acc to 10%, what the f**k is that? And now even the worst infantry like Grenadier can crush soviet infantry. Balancing should be carefully, just tweak a bit, if it don’t work out then add more changes. But it seems Eugen just prefers turning everthing upsidedown in one patch. Gives out free faust and increase soviet infantry price can still be somewhat playable, ENCHANT MG34 and MG42 is already broken. And combines all three above? Then it is totally broken.

I heard it all start with someone cried that MG42 can’t defeat DP, it should be impossible given the same situation like same protection same XP no other support fire etc because MG34 and MG42 have higher rof than DP and same acc. Even if it’s true, it must be some bugs, and Eugen just need to fix it. And now? It is the only magical MG that have 10% acc and almost two times higher rof than other 10% acc MG! So through just some dubious tests and the German get super weapon from another era while soviet is beaten down to the ground. There must be someone doubts that soviet have better infantry than German before. Well, let’s not talk about divisions with MP44s or Hungarians just yet, I have two arguments. ( sorry for being emotional, but it is one of the most stupid balance patch I have ever seen).

[lscander]

The first is from the Topic One, the foundation of infantry balancing. It is already settled in 1st and 2nd Beta. The Gd(DP) and PG(with or without faust) are the backbone of armored division, the PG can defeat Gd(DP) because they have better MG, they do have less man but they can still win as long as it stay outside of 100m range. The Gd(DP) have one PTRD which is pretty good against lightly armored vehicle, even the Panzer IV and Stug III when in good position. It is designed that PG can win against Gd(DP) so they get 5 more points, while Gd(DP) it better at against armor, pretty balanced, isn’t it? And we get Sk(DP) in later Beta…… Does the title “Guard” means worse weaponry? This one can defeat PG within 500m range so increase the price for Sk(DP) is somewhat understandable. As for the faust, it is useless most of the time and have less availability, but it is always good to have one thus you can leave just infantry in town or forest, and it can pay back once launched. So in my opinion, no need to give out free faust, just buff the range to 150m ( how on earth did the faust’s range being nerfed while everything else gets range buff? Oh wait, at least SMGs don’t get buffed lol). This might lead to rebalance of other units but we will leave it for now.

[lscander]

he other is the balance of all over strength value. Just like in the army general mode, if you want to win the battle, you need to have strength advantages over enemy, including infantry, armor and support( support plays stronger role in PvP than in army general actually). From my experience, if the rate 5 means average( means you won’t feel pissed about it) and 10 means the strongest, the Soviet and German strength value in general should be like this ( note: average doesn’t mean median but the over all):
Soviet German
Infantry 6-9 ( average 7.5) 4.5-10( average 7)
Armor 4-9( average 5.5) 5-10( average 7.5)
Support 3-8.5( average 4.5) 6-9( average 7.5)
Anti Air 4.5-7.5( average 6) 5.5-8.5( average 7.5)
Air Force 6-8( average 7) 4.5-8.5( average 6.5)
It is based on my experience so it might not be accurate enough, but something is for sure, Soviet have better infantry than German division without MP44s and Hungarians( 559 is excluded from below, if there are more 559 players the balance might not be that broken). One card of Gd(DP) and two cards of Sapperi is enough to dealing with most German Panzer divisons and some Infantry division ( actually just one or two). However, almost every single German divison get either sp mortar with radio, 150mm howitzer, 105mm howitzer. The arty with radio do get nerfed in the last patch, but it is just like making arty without radio changing from total useless trash to normal trash. Every German division has at least two cards of radio arty while some Soviet division don’t have any radio arty, most German division have 150mm+ heavy howitzer while only 184 and 26 have heavy howitzer. And Su-76M is just a mediocre radio arty( which might even be a bit overpriced, leave it in other topic then) , and Katyusha and Andryusha are still nerfed( from the 3rd Beta). So German can easily destroy Soviet’s better infantry with much better arty, while those with MP44s or Hungarians can crush Soviet even easier.

As for armor value, IS-2 is good indeed, but what about other divisions? German get tons of tigers and panther, even most of the infantry divisions have tigers. Those without tigers have Stug IIIG and other complement like Pak43, Jagdpanther, KV-2. The only infantry division that only have Stug IIIG for their armor is 28 Jager, but they get freaking hordes of Hs 129! As for Soviet divisions, the 2 ya tank, 3 ya tank, 29 ya tank, Bezuglogo, 44 Strelkovy have better tank than Stug IIIG, the 184 get ISU-122……What about the rest of divisions then? Only Emcha and T-34/76s, and don’t overlook Soviet’s airforce since German have better anti air, flak 43 is the same price as Soviet’s 37mm while having higher rof, and quad 20mm in almost every division. AND we are having AA buff in this patch ( also to be talked about later). Zis-2 is just a slightly upgraded 6 pound which require skills to counter Tigers and Panthers. So why should Soviet players try hard to outwit enemy but German players just being relax, killing and advancing idly? That’s the core of balancing.
Anyway I might have gone too far. To be short, Soviet should have infantry advantages( at least against panzer division) as long as the whole game don’t get turned upsidedown, the foundation of Infantry created in 2nd patch should be reserved.

[lscander]

Extension from Topic Two
With the foundation of Infantry( Gd(DP) being 25 pts and PG being 30 pts), and the principle of MG, AT weapons worth 5 pts, we may talk about:

1. Sk(DP). Should it be 30pts? Actually idk, there are examples like German’s Pionier, Pionier(SVT), Jager Pionier being the same price, so upgrade bolt-action rifles to semi auto rifles might don’t cost more points. And being in 29 ya tank, two Podv Gruppas,184 Infantry won’t be broken since they all have certain weakness, so I prefer it remain 25 pts.

2. Sapperi(ppsh) and Stosstrupp. The second most stupid patch I have seen. It seems like Soviet and German have these two units exchanged. Now we have Sapperi with only SMG and faust being in assualt engineer type rather than anti-tank tab, and 15 pts assualt squad which can trash literally any infantry within 100m, Lmao. How could Sapperi don’t have any methods to remove infantry? Eugen does the upsidedown magic again. The previous 15 pts Sapperi(ppsh) is kinda OP, but adjust the amount of TNT to 1 will be good. And the Stosstrupp is OP too because the molotov aims way too fast, TNT and flamethrower don’t have enough time to aim then being trashed by flame and move around and can’t return fire then being either killed or captured. Nerf the aim time of molotov will be essential. The price won’t be an issue as long as Soviet has its counter part.

3. MP44s. They are hard to balance since they are very different from PG, everyone knows how fierce they are when in 300m range, even when in 100m ppsh squad can’t win against them( generally have more XP and more men than ppsh squad, and acc being buffed for getting 200m closer). So we have to compare themselves. We have Begleit Pioneer(35pts), Begleit Grenadier(30pts), Regit-Jager(MP44)(30pts), Stosstrupp(MP44)(15pts), Sturm-Skijager(35pts), Sturmjager(40pts), Sturmschutzen(35pts) (sorry for not using German word, I’m just lazy). Some of the MP44 squad are upgraded from other squad, so we may compare with it then compare with PG. The Grenadier(25pts) is a great example of downgraded PG; Regit-Jager(30pts) is also fine as SMG squad; Skijager(30pts) exchange one MG for Panzerfaust, ok; Stosstrupp……Let’s presume it is balanced for being 15pts; Jager(30pts) is also fine as mixed SMG squad; Schutzen can’t be compared with Sturmschutzen. Sturmjager is very similar to Jager since it just replace Mp40 with MP44, results in 10 more pts. And Sturmskijager is similar to Skijager too just by replacing a MG and a bunch of trash for 9 MP44s, which is 35 pts=30-5(MG)+10. So replacing seven or more rifles and SMGs for equal amounts of MP44s cost 10 pts. And we can see the Belgeit Grenadier should be 25+10=35 pts( they even get 3 more men and upgrade MG34 to MG42); Belgeit Pioneer should be 30+10=40 pts( still get 3 more men); Stosstrupp(MP44) should be at least 15+5=20 pts for replacing 5 MP44s, or just get back your smoke grenade! Sturmschutzen has more men and upgraded AT grenade to Panzerfaust compared with Sturmskijager, so 35+5=40 pts should be fair. Regit-Jager(MP44) should be 30+10( 7 MP44s)-5( no faust)=35 pts.

4. Hungarians. The Hungarians works just fine in their own systems. We NEED to nerf Hartneck, not those poor Hungarians!

[lscander]

Feel free to add more examples to extension, I will talk about the 《Topic Three: Artillery Balancing?》tomorrow.

[acur1231]

I never understand why the default mode is not Eastern Front only. It would make Eugen's job much easier.

As for overall balance, I don't think it is that bad. Loads of German divs have loads of Tigers, but Tigers are not exactly great in this game (or in SD44, but that could be because my main decks were Guards and 15th back there. Those 17 pounders came in very useful). Could I suggest, in general, that each Soviet division get more artillery, the same way most German decks have more heavy tanks? A simple doubling of artillery units per card across the board for the USSR decks would do the trick. Asymetric balance for the win.

[lscander]

acur1231 původně napsal:

I never understand why the default mode is not Eastern Front only. It would make Eugen's job much easier.

As for overall balance, I don't think it is that bad. Loads of German divs have loads of Tigers, but Tigers are not exactly great in this game (or in SD44, but that could be because my main decks were Guards and 15th back there. Those 17 pounders came in very useful). Could I suggest, in general, that each Soviet division get more artillery, the same way most German decks have more heavy tanks? A simple doubling of artillery units per card across the board for the USSR decks would do the trick. Asymetric balance for the win.

15th and Canadian are powerful now indeed, actually just the few remaining divisions that can withstand German in 1.5 patch. The problems for some Soviet divisions is that they only have T-34/76 and Zis-2 to counter tanks, while Zis-2 is just a slightly upgraded 6 Pound( actually downgraded, because 6 Pound have more availability and XP for being 4/3/2 while Zis-2 is just 3/2/1), Tigers are great because they can pen T-34/85 easily from 2000m, and don't afraid of being side shot by T-34/76 or M4s unless in close range, while Panthers are vulnerable when being side shot.

[lscander]

Some Additional Ideas: Yeah I forget about Valentine form Topic One and SMG in Topic Two. I will talk about them one by one.

Valentine IX have apv sum of 85+115=200mm, being 55 pts. While compared to stereotype Panzer IV G,it gets much lower speed and no machinegun but high rof. So it should be 50-5( tea time speed)+0( high rof but small calibre and no MG)=45 pts. We could see most allied tanks are overpriced a bit……Or could our stereotype Panzer IV G being too cheap? Panzer IV H used to be 60 pts and works perfectly fine, but for some reasons it just being 55 pts. The Panzer IV is in upper hand when dealing with T-34/76s or Shermans, though easily get trashed by infantry, it is still good enough.

The SMG is one of the few weapons that didn’t get buffed in range. I havn’t been in SD1 era but I’m pretty much sure 100m in SD2 is not enough, other infantry can easily get out of 100m range and then fight back or just run away. But if the SMG’s range is buffed, then what about TNT? Sapperi will be countered by SMG when not in dense forest or extreme close town fight. I will just throw out a question: how will the balance go if the SMG are buffed to 150m range? The answer could only be obtained through experiments or somthing.

There is an extra answer to the craze on Tigers. Tigers are very good tanks, beacuse its ap rounds only lose small portion of penetration at long range. You can see it here: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1826108545 . Thanks Inertia for his experiments! And Tigers have good side, rear armor which can withstand many conventional rounds at long range. So Tigers are great long range sniper being in many German INFANTRY DIVISIONS! Infantry divisions are supposed to have good inf, arty or airforce, but German combine they with good armor force that few Soviet infantry divison have. So that’s the issue.

[[Noob] Ranger]

lscander původně napsal:

So Tigers are great long range sniper being in many German INFANTRY DIVISIONS! Infantry divisions are supposed to have good inf, arty or airforce, but German combine they with good armor force that few Soviet infantry divison have. So that’s the issue.

I pointed out this problem while "a senior player with much experience" denied it and said 14.Inf and Hartneck are weak with ONLY 2 cards of tigers

[lscander]

Topic Three: Artillery Balancing( This section is much more messy than I thought so it won’t be finished in just one day)

In the patch 1.4, the radio arty get nerfed, so some people thinks the Axis get greatly nerfed because all of the Axis divisions have radio arty. But little do they care that how great the gap between German’s arty and Soviet’s arty is before ( some Soviet divisions have artillerists but without radio arty, Lmao). Even if radio arty is nerfed, they are still way better than arty without radio, just like radio arty is rated 8-10, non-radio arty is rated 3.5-6, the radio arty just dropped to 7-9 in this patch( AND Soviet are using one of the worst non-radio arty!). Some people may also say that 26 ya Guard Strelkovy has great arty, but the B-4 and Br-5 are extremely weak to arty fire cause they are count as sp arty thus can’t get protection from forest, and they are slow. So these two heavy arty are just like heavy arty mounted on huge slow truck, makes it great target for enemy’s heavy arty. And in 1.4 patch the heavy arty even get more precise, so B-4 and Br-5 are having even hard time surviving. Other common arty for Soviet is Su-76M, Katyusha, F-22 and off-map arty. ML-20 and A-19 are great but only two divisions have them, while most German divisions get 150mm+ heavy arty, huh. Anyway, if it is historical, or Eugen believes it’s historical, then we can only balance it with price and availability. Let’s go ahead.

First, how the price of howitzers are valued? In Eugen’s opinion, radio don’t cost more points example like 97M 75mm versus Fk231 75mm, Soviet M-30 versus German M-30, how hilarious! But let’s just presume it is right, for now. Then what about smoke and ability to direct fire? Then it is toally a mess when you look into howitzer tab, there aren’t any howitzers that can be compared directly, or the conclusion you get by compared two units get contradictory with the comparsion of other two units. Lots of balance are needed in artillery tab. But if we are going to balance we always need foundation, which unit could be the foundation of artillery?

Start with howitzer(light) because there are only four kinds of arty there, and then we need to introduce DPM to judge how efficient an arty is( indirect fire of course). I personally use this formula to evaluate DPM= Damage*Blast*Accuracy*Rate of Fire/1000. The F-22 have DPM value of 23.712 while FK231 75mm have DPM value of 28.08, and F-22 is 10 pts more expensive. F-22 do have better penetration when direct fire and more ap( I personally think it is a disadvantage to arty, who will use arty to direct fire on enemy unless they are DESPERATE? That’s one point when I will talk later) and smoke, but it only have about 80% efficiency compared with FK231( radio don’t count) when indirect fire. And we can see GebG 36 with DPM of 24.26 but with smoke and no direct fire and only 45 pts. I personally think the DPM and survivability is the most important part for arty, while smoke, direct fire are just gadgets like APCR that only plays little role in price valuing. If we use GebG 36 as the foundation of light howitzer, then F-22 could be: 45+5( less DPM and ammunition but ability to direct fire)=50 pts , and replace some AP for HE! Nobody need that much AP for an artillery that only need to defend itself( Or just give it freaking FREE radio! Nobody will complain about Soviet not having good arty and 60 pts then)! The FK231 do have less range, but 8125m is more than needed most of the time. So the F-22 is 50 pts then, and we should balance its availability the same as FK 231’s 5/10/15( A/B/C). Then Soviet finally have some widely used average arty, it can be rated 5 now and previous F-22 can only be 3.5 or 4. We will discuss how much points radio worths, or just delete the radio of FK 231 so we don’t have an exception division that don’t have any weakness in ANY tab which will also makes balancing a LOT more easier!

[SalzStange]

NoobRanger původně napsal:

SalzStange původně napsal:

thats actually wrong. You caneasily see that hartneck has no good tanks. 14 inf has only 2 cards of tigers. ok not that bad BUT look at their aircrafts... resilence medium. For expensive bombers. do i need to say more? No. AA will beat them like hell. SIncei t's pretty strong in sd2.

now lets take a look at some russian divsions..... 44 infantrie, , 29, 168, or 26... do i need to say more?
ya 44 infantrie has for sure not that good arty. But it's enough. 26 is a beast with arty and look at their sweet tanks on top.. the aircrafts and so on. the at weapons... infantrie... or let's take al ook at 184 which have BEAST aircrafts , beast art, beast at, very good inf+ recon..

the aircraft are not jsut cheap they are also strong armor and pretty much damage....


on other side i agree in some points. some divsions at russia like the 9 inf is ya... gargbage^^

let me show you what is 26's beast art
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1832720338

lol. you are showing me a screen of coutnerattack. Maybe but just maybe the 280 and the 205 are not the most effective coutner artys....... More useful: if you look at screens while 280mm massdestroy kingtiger and other tanks;) and kill 10x of their own worth

with some gamexpierence you will find this out;) and you will learn that your screenshot has zero worth cause no one knows if they even coutnered back and on top it isn't even a coutner arty.... ;) it's like oc mparing apple with meat.

[acur1231]

SalzStange původně napsal:

NoobRanger původně napsal:

let me show you what is 26's beast art
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1832720338

lol. you are showing me a screen of coutnerattack. Maybe but just maybe the 280 and the 205 are not the most effective coutner artys....... More useful: if you look at screens while 280mm massdestroy kingtiger and other tanks;) and kill 10x of their own worth

with some gamexpierence you will find this out;) and you will learn that your screenshot has zero worth cause no one knows if they even coutnered back and on top it isn't even a coutner arty.... ;) it's like oc mparing apple with meat.

Whats with your obsession with King Tigers? You bring them up way too often in unrelated topics.