Why can't developers understand why Dark Souls was good?

[srfrogg23]

Seriously, this is a question I've had for a while. I'm going to stop buying "Souls-like" games because every time people set out to emulate the Souls games, they misinterpret that to mean "just keep kicking the player in the ♥♥♥♥ with unfair combat scenarios".

For example, Fromsoftware didn't start any of the Souls games by throwing the player into 4v1 scenarios with enemies that all stack up attacks on the player at the same time. I mean, stuff like that happened a little later, but NEVER in the first 10 minutes. This is ridiculous.

I think this game needs to rebalancing. You've got to ease your customers into the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, like a gentleman. You can't just ram it in dry!

[Eldacar]

This is not Dark Souls and the game does not emulate Dark Souls but brings its mechanichs, ideally, in a iso view. You can do whatever you want since the first second so if you don't like 4vs1 you can't simply avoid fights or start slow, equip and be ready to face more than an enemy at time (dodge & parry). The game is under iteration of course, but this is not balancing (which is on numbers), it is design related 😃

[srfrogg23]

Originally posted by Eldacar:

This is not Dark Souls and the game does not emulate Dark Souls but brings its mechanichs, ideally, in a iso view. You can do whatever you want since the first second so if you don't like 4vs1 you can't simply avoid fights or start slow, equip and be ready to face more than an enemy at time (dodge & parry). The game is under iteration of course, but this is not balancing (which is on numbers), it is design related 😃

Why would I want to play an RPG where the best advice is to avoid fights? What is there to even do if I'm not fighting things?

[Eldacar]

The best advice is don't rush things. You can even go to a 4 skulls area 30 seconds after the start and you are going to die as it should be. Same if you rush things. Fighting things is good but you are not supposed to rush things and "fight things" Diablo-like. Because this is not Diablo, as it is not Dark Souls or anything else.

[Dehexed]

Combat is mostly pretty easy if you just make use of all of your options. For one, make us of targeting. If you are being attacked by many enemies that include ranged enemies, target the ranged enemies first. Run away from the group, dodge the missiles, then run toward those enemies and dispatch them first.

When all ranged enemies are dead, target the enemy that approaches you. It helps to learn perfect parry/block to maximize damage. If the enemy has a shield, and it glows--indicating that it is blocking--kick it to make it lower its guard, then follow up with multiple attacks. If you are in danger of being overwhelmed, dodge or run away from the group for a while and then re-target the nearest enemy.

Keeping enemies targeted and dodging to the side when they attack followed by a counter-attack is another strategy.

To make things even easier, choose and make use of the healing spell or the vampire drain spell. Some of the other skills make combat even easier, but you'll just have to experiment with them, since a few of them are pretty useless. Don't be afraid to respec, but stay away from the grandmasters.

This game has very little in common with Dark Souls, and Baldur's Gate for that matter, except for superficial similarities.

I think the sentence "Baldur's Gate and Dark Souls had a baby!" on the Store page is a little misleading, and could give potential buyers the wrong expectations.

[Eldacar]

Originally posted by Dehexed:

Combat is mostly pretty easy if you just make use of all of your options. For one, make us of targeting. If you are being attacked by many enemies that include ranged enemies, target the ranged enemies first. Run away from the group, dodge the missiles, then run toward those enemies and dispatch them first.

When all ranged enemies are dead, target the enemy that approaches you. It helps to learn perfect parry/block to maximize damage. If the enemy has a shield, and it glows--indicating that it is blocking--kick it to make it lower its guard, then follow up with multiple attacks. If you are in danger of being overwhelmed, dodge or run away from the group for a while and then re-target the nearest enemy.

Keeping enemies targeted and dodging to the side when they attack followed by a counter-attack is another strategy.

To make things even easier, choose and make use of the healing spell or the vampire drain spell. Some of the other skills make combat even easier, but you'll just have to experiment with them, since a few of them are pretty useless. Don't be afraid to respec, but stay away from the grandmasters.

This game has very little in common with Dark Souls, and Baldur's Gate for that matter, except for superficial similarities.

I think the sentence "Baldur's Gate and Dark Souls had a baby!" on the Store page is a little misleading, and could give potential buyers the wrong expectations.

Baldur's Gate and Dark Souls had a baby does not mean the game is a copy of one or another. And it is the most common quote from reviews here and from the press, not our "creation" (given that it was the original vision: something in between. We can't really do anything more than explain this everytime 🥲

[Drizzt89]

Originally posted by srfrogg23:

Seriously, this is a question I've had for a while. I'm going to stop buying "Souls-like" games because every time people set out to emulate the Souls games, they misinterpret that to mean "just keep kicking the player in the ♥♥♥♥ with unfair combat scenarios".

For example, Fromsoftware didn't start any of the Souls games by throwing the player into 4v1 scenarios with enemies that all stack up attacks on the player at the same time. I mean, stuff like that happened a little later, but NEVER in the first 10 minutes. This is ridiculous.

I think this game needs to rebalancing. You've got to ease your customers into the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, like a gentleman. You can't just ram it in dry!

LoL you don't remember the tutorial of the first Dark Souls probably. In the first 10 minutes of a game on rail, you can maybe do what you say. But this is not a game on rails and that's why is cool. On top of this: if you play like Diablo just mashing buttons, it's probably you. Not the game 😆

[Dehexed]

Originally posted by Eldacar:

Baldur's Gate and Dark Souls had a baby does not mean the game is a copy of one or another. And it is the most common quote from reviews here and from the press, not our "creation" (given that it was the original vision: something in between. We can't really do anything more than explain this everytime 🥲

No disrespect, but I think that the fact that you have to explain that over and over again to people is a good indicator that players sometimes have wrong expectations when they buy the game.

It would be better to not name other games at all and letting the game stand on its own merits. It is inevitable that people are going to compare it with those games.

[Eldacar]

Point is that there is no way to explain, apparently. The new payoff is already a mod of the old one that was "in between old and new" and then "in between old classics and modern action rpg". The problem is that expectetions come from the single user interpretation on this. Even because it's clear after playing. And not mentioning other games was not fine. Now the opposite.

And this is pubblic since ages

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/919360/view/3524658636179884738

Let's see what we can do

[srfrogg23]

Originally posted by Drizzt89:

Originally posted by srfrogg23:

Seriously, this is a question I've had for a while. I'm going to stop buying "Souls-like" games because every time people set out to emulate the Souls games, they misinterpret that to mean "just keep kicking the player in the ♥♥♥♥ with unfair combat scenarios".

For example, Fromsoftware didn't start any of the Souls games by throwing the player into 4v1 scenarios with enemies that all stack up attacks on the player at the same time. I mean, stuff like that happened a little later, but NEVER in the first 10 minutes. This is ridiculous.

I think this game needs to rebalancing. You've got to ease your customers into the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, like a gentleman. You can't just ram it in dry!

LoL you don't remember the tutorial of the first Dark Souls probably. In the first 10 minutes of a game on rail, you can maybe do what you say. But this is not a game on rails and that's why is cool. On top of this: if you play like Diablo just mashing buttons, it's probably you. Not the game 😆

The asylum demon was a teaching tool. It's there to teach players to prepare properly before jumping into a fight. The intended solution is to run through the side door and loop back around to the balcony after grabbing the class's melee weapon and shield, then do the plunging attack.

That is completely different from "throw player into a box arena with 4 enemies that hit as hard as the player" as a gameplay loop.

[srfrogg23]

Originally posted by Eldacar:

Originally posted by Dehexed:

Combat is mostly pretty easy if you just make use of all of your options. For one, make us of targeting. If you are being attacked by many enemies that include ranged enemies, target the ranged enemies first. Run away from the group, dodge the missiles, then run toward those enemies and dispatch them first.

When all ranged enemies are dead, target the enemy that approaches you. It helps to learn perfect parry/block to maximize damage. If the enemy has a shield, and it glows--indicating that it is blocking--kick it to make it lower its guard, then follow up with multiple attacks. If you are in danger of being overwhelmed, dodge or run away from the group for a while and then re-target the nearest enemy.

Keeping enemies targeted and dodging to the side when they attack followed by a counter-attack is another strategy.

To make things even easier, choose and make use of the healing spell or the vampire drain spell. Some of the other skills make combat even easier, but you'll just have to experiment with them, since a few of them are pretty useless. Don't be afraid to respec, but stay away from the grandmasters.

This game has very little in common with Dark Souls, and Baldur's Gate for that matter, except for superficial similarities.

I think the sentence "Baldur's Gate and Dark Souls had a baby!" on the Store page is a little misleading, and could give potential buyers the wrong expectations.

Baldur's Gate and Dark Souls had a baby does not mean the game is a copy of one or another. And it is the most common quote from reviews here and from the press, not our "creation" (given that it was the original vision: something in between. We can't really do anything more than explain this everytime 🥲

2 things:

1. Those are both great games and there's nothing wrong with combining those two concepts - YOU JUST NEED TO BE ABLE TO LIVE UP TO THAT EXPECTATION. No offense, but right now, this game just doesn't measure up to either of those pedigrees.

2. IF you don't like people drawing those comparisons, then you should probably change the description on the store page. "Baldur's Gate and Dark Souls had a baby!" is literally the first sentence in the product description.

[Eldacar]

Originally posted by srfrogg23:

Originally posted by Eldacar:

Baldur's Gate and Dark Souls had a baby does not mean the game is a copy of one or another. And it is the most common quote from reviews here and from the press, not our "creation" (given that it was the original vision: something in between. We can't really do anything more than explain this everytime 🥲

2 things:

1. Those are both great games and there's nothing wrong with combining those two concepts - YOU JUST NEED TO BE ABLE TO LIVE UP TO THAT EXPECTATION. No offense, but right now, this game just doesn't measure up to either of those pedigrees.

2. IF you don't like people drawing those comparisons, then you should probably change the description on the store page. "Baldur's Gate and Dark Souls had a baby!" is literally the first sentence in the product description.

2 answers

1. We are not offended, everyone is free to say whatever he wants of course and like or dislike the game. The point still stays that we are a 10 people team trying to do something fresh. If you're expectation starts from the idea of getting a Triple A, well...

2. It's completely the opposite as already said: the first sentence in the product description is not by us but it's the most common quote from players and press reviews that community asked to be put in in the store page to avoid the previously misleading "in between crpg and modern action"

[Eldacar]

Originally posted by srfrogg23:

Originally posted by Drizzt89:

LoL you don't remember the tutorial of the first Dark Souls probably. In the first 10 minutes of a game on rail, you can maybe do what you say. But this is not a game on rails and that's why is cool. On top of this: if you play like Diablo just mashing buttons, it's probably you. Not the game 😆

The asylum demon was a teaching tool. It's there to teach players to prepare properly before jumping into a fight. The intended solution is to run through the side door and loop back around to the balcony after grabbing the class's melee weapon and shield, then do the plunging attack.

That is completely different from "throw player into a box arena with 4 enemies that hit as hard as the player" as a gameplay loop.

You have a tutorial here that teaches you all the basis to survive combat early in the game. Then, if you go in a FA without a bit of bounties done and some equip you still risk to die. As you can complete the game with no epic gear as well. Because it's about your skills pad at hand

[srfrogg23]

Originally posted by Eldacar:

Originally posted by srfrogg23:

2 things:

1. Those are both great games and there's nothing wrong with combining those two concepts - YOU JUST NEED TO BE ABLE TO LIVE UP TO THAT EXPECTATION. No offense, but right now, this game just doesn't measure up to either of those pedigrees.

2. IF you don't like people drawing those comparisons, then you should probably change the description on the store page. "Baldur's Gate and Dark Souls had a baby!" is literally the first sentence in the product description.

2 answers

1. We are not offended, everyone is free to say whatever it wants of course and like or dislike the game. The point still stays that we are a 10 people team trying to do something fresh. If you're expectation starts from the idea of getting a Triple A, well...

2. It's completely the opposite as already said: the first sentence in the product description is not by us but it's the most common quote from players and press reviews that community asked to be put in in the store page to avoid the previously misleading "in between crpg and modern action"

Sure, it's a fresh idea. I was drawn to it when I heard that it was like a cross between Baldur's Gate and Dark Souls. That sounds really cool. You know, you're setting yourself up for a really really really really really really really tough uphill climb if you're going to insist that your game isn't actually intended to be like either of those games because those comparisons are just going to keep on coming, especially with the art style, the combat style, the death and resurrection mechanic, the equipment and gearing... oh, AND THE DIRECT COMPARISON ON THE PRODUCT DESCRIPTION ON THE STORE PAGE.

Seriously man, either embrace it and go all in on emulating those games, or go change the product description on the store page, but please don't try to claim that these ham-fisted encounters and mechanics are "something fresh". There's a reason why some titles rise to the top and others sell very poorly.

[Eldacar]

Originally posted by srfrogg23:

Originally posted by Eldacar:

2 answers

1. We are not offended, everyone is free to say whatever it wants of course and like or dislike the game. The point still stays that we are a 10 people team trying to do something fresh. If you're expectation starts from the idea of getting a Triple A, well...

2. It's completely the opposite as already said: the first sentence in the product description is not by us but it's the most common quote from players and press reviews that community asked to be put in in the store page to avoid the previously misleading "in between crpg and modern action"

Sure, it's a fresh idea. I was drawn to it when I heard that it was like a cross between Baldur's Gate and Dark Souls. That sounds really cool. You know, you're setting yourself up for a really really really really really really really tough uphill climb if you're going to insist that your game isn't actually intended to be like either of those games because those comparisons are just going to keep on coming, especially with the art style, the combat style, the death and resurrection mechanic, the equipment and gearing... oh, AND THE DIRECT COMPARISON ON THE PRODUCT DESCRIPTION ON THE STORE PAGE.

Seriously man, either embrace it and go all in on emulating those games, or go change the product description on the store page, but please don't try to claim that these ham-fisted encounters and mechanics are "something fresh". There's a reason why some titles rise to the top and others sell very poorly.

Man, we can stay here forever: IT IS a cross of old school games [visual, world building] and modern action [real time, skill based combat]. Then you can switch names or try to explain what we are trying to explain in many different ways but it makes no difference. Our game IS NOT intended to be other games, it takes from other games [inspiration means this] and try to mix stuff to get something new. So again, what we are talking about exactly?

What is keep on coming is people validating this, luckily, and we have already considered the chance of getting thumbs down from people "expecting" a game that is clearly something different from what Alaloth is [BG or DS], despite trying to use well known features/mechanics of these games in a different way than usual.

The reason why some titles rise to the top is usually marketing related but that's a different story

Cheers

[srfrogg23]

Originally posted by Eldacar:

Originally posted by srfrogg23:

Sure, it's a fresh idea. I was drawn to it when I heard that it was like a cross between Baldur's Gate and Dark Souls. That sounds really cool. You know, you're setting yourself up for a really really really really really really really tough uphill climb if you're going to insist that your game isn't actually intended to be like either of those games because those comparisons are just going to keep on coming, especially with the art style, the combat style, the death and resurrection mechanic, the equipment and gearing... oh, AND THE DIRECT COMPARISON ON THE PRODUCT DESCRIPTION ON THE STORE PAGE.

Seriously man, either embrace it and go all in on emulating those games, or go change the product description on the store page, but please don't try to claim that these ham-fisted encounters and mechanics are "something fresh". There's a reason why some titles rise to the top and others sell very poorly.

Man, we can stay here forever: IT IS a cross of old school games [visual, world building] and modern action [real time, skill based combat]. Then you can switch names or try to explain what we are trying to explain in many different ways but it makes no difference. Our game IS NOT intended to be other games, it takes from other games [inspiration means this] and try to mix stuff to get something new. So again, what we are talking about exactly?

What is keep on coming is people validating this, luckily, and we have already considered the change of getting thumbs down from people "expecting" a game that is clearly something different, despite trying to use well known mechanics in a different way than usual.

The reason why some titles rise to the top is usually marketing related but that's a different story

Cheers

Yeah, I think we're talking passed each other here. The encounters and pacing are why I gave your game a thumbs down. The comparison to Baldur's Gate and Dark Souls on the store page are the ONLY reasons why I even noticed that your game existed in the first place. That comparison is literally the only reason for why you currently have my money in your bank account right now.

But, by all means, keep ignoring the real problems with the way the game is designed and go ahead and think that I'm just dissatisfied because you just want to believe that I am incapable of understanding your product.