Armor Value vs. Weapon Value

[Wasp]

I bought the game last week and try a little bit around with the editor. Normaly I would say its a game, we need some sort of a balancing even that belancing didnt match the real world reality.

But this game is a simulation and as such it should be more historical correct. It seems the developer confound a little bit on the german side.

For example Shermans against 1 Panther or 1 Tiger

It seems the Tiger in the game is the mutch stronger opponent comperade to the Panther but this is wrong.

Even in Armor (exept the side and deck Armor) and Weapon Value the Panther was better than the Tiger I. In the Game sometimes even the first hit from a sherman 75mm Gun penetrates the Panther front armor and this is impossible. The 75mm Gun from the Sherman was so weak that it cant penetrate the front armor from a Panther at no distance. The earlyer designed Tiger Armor can be penetrated from the Sherman when he comes in ranges under 400m. In game its seems both armores are too weak but at worst the Tiger I Armor seems to be mutch more effective than the Armor form the Panther?

Same to the Weapon Values. The 7,5-cm-KwK 42 L/70 gun is a little bit better then the 8,8-cm-KwK 36 L/56 from the Tiger. But in Game a Sherman hit by the Tiger I Gun is almost disabled/destroyed by the first hit. With the Panther Gun you need up to 3-4 hits at a Sherman before it is disabled/destroyed.

I should say in IF:L 44 I am a singleplayer only Gamer...maybe there are different stats for singleplayer and multiplayer (due the balancing). But I am not realy interesstet in multiplayer battles.

So is there a mod out who give the unites realy realistic values?

[Santa Six]

I asked the devs about tank balancing. You can read what MikeeCZ(AWAR dev.) said here.

http://awar.su/en/forum/questions-and-answers/28-is-there-tank-balancing.html

[Wasp]

Okay ty for the link. I bought the game and the DLC both at once...comes the Panther with the DLC? MikeeCZ Answers compare Panzer IV / Tiger and King Tiger with T34 / T34 85mm and IS-2 122mm but I dont read anything about the Panther.

As I say in my original post it seems the Panther was outgunned and outarmored by the Tiger, but that can´t be, even its classified as a medium tank?

alloverall they say their tankdata reley on historical datas, but that cant be right, sadly. On other hand its good to know, so I now know how to overthink my missions.

Again ty for your answer.

[overdonezach]

colt m1911 all the

[RobZ]

First of all, panthers gun only got more penetration but is smaller in caliber (75mm vs 88mm). More penetration doesn't mean it shoud do more damage, logic states that the larger caliber round would do more damage to the tank and inner components. Secound, the sherman 75 could not penetrate tiger I's frontal armor at any range, if u want to state that the sherman could penetrate tiger's 100mm frontal armor, it could penetrate panther's turret too since that was also 100mms thick. There was 2 versions of tigers beeing produced, early and late production, both of them had same armor value (100mm).

[Wasp]

The Sherman 75mm can penetrate the front of the turet from the Panther/ front Hull of the Tiger...it cant penetrate the front hull armor from the Panther. I dont know what you think, but if a round penetrate the armore of the tank, than its become very dangerous inside. It makes no difference if it is a 75mm or 88mm round, both are more than enought to kill or damage the vital spots of a tank. The game is broken in this way...

[QUANTUM MECHANICS c000021a]

Depends also on difficulty which you play on.
Set expert difficulty i think there will be a huge difference.

[Wasp]

it comes worser I think??? In a Tiger I can suvive far more front hits from all caliber guns than in a Panther? I test it in the editor. The Panther always dies after 1-3 hits, the tiger can stand 3+ before the crew got hurt. With the option (more armor or so) it feels better if you start with the Panther but becomes rediculus if you are out with the tiger. But hey, everyone should be lucky with the game how it is, I dont need to play it :)

[QUANTUM MECHANICS c000021a]

And whats wrong with it ? Tiger had unsloped armor about 100 mm thick on front hull, 120mm on turret and 80 mm on sides.

Panther got 80 or 85 mm sloped front hull armor. The game calculates a lot of things like curve of flying shells, armor quality, distance etc. This is why performance gets huge fps drops when you play with armor because of this ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ old BIS "real virtuality 3" engine.

Pather was good tank indeed but was not buletproof.

Ingame there are APCR shells also, AI always choose this kind of ammunition against tanks.
Maybe because of this too.

[QUANTUM MECHANICS c000021a]

About that KwK42 gun and the shermans see this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6LqB-RYUvY

The high-velocity guns like KwK43 or 42 were made to be effective at long ranges 1000 meters+
If it hit weak armors like shermans or T34`s it was just ammo wasting, the shell flew thru the tank.
Mostly only killed the crew but no serious damage to the tank.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns6l7sCoWX4

[QUANTUM MECHANICS c000021a]

Btw about realism in this game, its most realistic game for decades but on wrong engine...
Because this pieceofshite engine sux. Thats only and big con for this title.

[Wasp]

Say wahtever you want the game tell another story. Medium Tanks like the Panther dies far faster then the Tiger (with front hits). Big guns like the 88´s kill mutch faster than the 75 from the Panther. Simply, medium tanks cant be better than heavy, big caliber gun must be better than smaler ones, thats wrong.

Shermans dont fight back (in cause of crew kill?) after arround 3+ direct front Hits from the Panther, but dies instantly by a hit from the Tiger? Or at max 2 hits?

I dont talk about tanks that explode like cinema ones. On every (most) picture about WWII footage where hits are shown, they only puncture the hull. Crew dies, hull and tank looks like intact from the outside view.

The Panther had a 80mm front armor with an angle of 35° that gives against fronthits an effective armor from 139,46mm (80mm/sin35°). So it should (and do it) take more hits to penetrate the front armor of the Panther, and at least the same shots to penetrate the front from the turret (hull of the Tiger), but ingame the Panther is far weaker then the Tiger (talking about hits on the front location from the tank). Thats why the T34 was such a nice and good tank. The sloped armor was genius. Thinner armor, lighter tanks but with more protection, but you need a littel bit more space (because of the angle).

[QUANTUM MECHANICS c000021a]

Seems that you don`t understand the posts above... Say whatever you want but reality tell another story... Yea exactly.

The APCR munitions had bit greater penetration one more time this.
T-34/85s penetrated 100mm steel at 1000km with AP, dunno about APCR shots but it could be 112 or more at same distance.

[Wasp]

Oh wait, can it be we talk about two different things? If I write T34/85 thats my failure, but I talk about Sherman 75mm, short distance against front armor from the Panther and the Tiger.

Tiger takes far more hits, but his armor was outdatet against the armor from the Panther, who gives it a better survivability against such guns. In short distances the Sherman can penetrate the front armor of a Tiger (Hull) and turretarmor from the Panther at around 400m above this distance no way. The Hull armor from the Panther cant be penetratet from the sherman at no distance at all.

The long barrel version Sherman 76mm / 13pdr Firely / T34/85 are a totaly different league. And again I talk about:

Why the Tiger, with the older design, and effective lower armorvalues, seems to be mutch harder to kill from a Sherman than a Panther.

Why the Tigers Gun with less penetration Power is more effective against the targets as the high velocity Panther gun.

In the game, this fact, its classiefied as a medium Tank, seems the reason to made it worser then a heavy tank. Thats what I am talking about.

[QUANTUM MECHANICS c000021a]

Originally posted by Wasp:

Why the Tiger, with the older design, and effective lower armorvalues, seems to be mutch harder to kill from a Sherman than a Panther.

Why the Tigers Gun with less penetration Power is more effective against the targets as the high velocity Panther gun.

In the game, this fact, its classiefied as a medium Tank, seems the reason to made it worser then a heavy tank. Thats what I am talking about.

Tiger had still 20mm+ front armor.
The 80mm sloped armor was sometimes disadvantage on Panther, especially to projectiles flying at greater curve ( See IS-2 )
D-25T can`t penetrate Panther at close ranges ( when the projectile curve was too flat ) but pardoxly it penetrated 2 times ( the rear end ) at 1400 meters...

Sherman uses APCR shot ingame. So the penetration can be greater.

KwK42 was overkill for medium tanks, Panzer IV was main enemy for T-34`s and shermans.
Tiger had less effective penetration range and paradoxly this was the reason why it was better at killing medium tanks, because the shell did not fly thru the whole tank but exploded inside the tank...

[RobZ]

Sherman doesn't have over 100mm penetration without APCR shells, or the american name HVAP shells. And sherman tanks carried few to none HVAP shells during the whole war. The shells u see ingame is not AP, its APC shells. APC shells got UNDER 100mm penetration (90mm to be exact), which means it shoud not be able to kill tiger nor panther from front at any range at all. And "Ivan" here explains very well why tiger was better vs shermans and T-34s than a Panther, since AP shells were almost not used at all, they were replaced by APCBC shells, which had a small explosive load, which exploded inside the tank. But panthers shell had so much speed even after penetrating, that the timer didn't run out and the shell went out the back.