OMG, seriously? Holy Carp...

[Randi Rabbit]

... What did I just experience? I saw this game today on PS5 today after never hearing about it, almost bought it there, but had a look at the different versions of the game, the base version was reasonable at £26.99, but then I saw the super mega ultra edition for £87.99 and was like, Woah there, that's quite a bump in price, what am I missing if I don't go down the super mega ultra edition? After looking into it I wasn't able to justify buying the standard edition as it seemed I'd be missing out on all the extra content, so I did the sensible thing and came onto Steam and bought it at it's current discounted price of £46 for the whole kit and caboodle.

Just been playing through the Tutorial campaign and am already amazed, it's been way over 2 hours (So no refund for me) and I've never been so drawn in to a story RPG since the old text based adventures on the Atari ST 520 back in the 80s... I've just made it to Avernum and have read absolutely everything including the blue linked codex entries... I'm a sucker for Dune, and this story is igniting a fire I haven't felt since reading through all of Tolkien's literature, I'm absolutely hooked. I also have consumed a fair few White Russians tonight so am gonna have to cut it short for tonight, but am so eager to continue this seemingly actual intriguing masterpiece of an RPG. How in the H - E - Double hockey stick have I never heard of this game until now? I guess I'm thankful it had a console release today so I found it.

[Lost Pilgrims Studios]

🖤

[Nordil(Hun)]

Actually what is even more astounding, is the level of translation.
Because i am fairly sure they play it originally in hungarian, as it is their own built world, and this level of translation to english is something that is very rare or perhaps even unique.

[Randi Rabbit]

Originally posted by Nordil(Hun):

Actually what is even more astounding, is the level of translation.
Because i am fairly sure they play it originally in hungarian, as it is their own built world, and this level of translation to english is something that is very rare or perhaps even unique.

That is impressive, I had no idea, damn, reads so well too. Wouldn't have known unless you mentioned it. Good lookin' out Boss.

[Lost Pilgrims Studios]

Our pen and paper RPG campaigns, when we get together to play have indeed been in Hungarian.
However, every text created for the setting (& the game) in the last 10-15 years has been written in English. Sometimes we need to look for the Hungarian equivalent for terms that come so naturally in English when talking about the game/setting. It's an interesting process.

[Nordil(Hun)]

Originally posted by Lost Pilgrims Studios:

Our pen and paper RPG campaigns, when we get together to play have indeed been in Hungarian.
However, every text created for the setting (& the game) in the last 10-15 years has been written in English. Sometimes we need to look for the Hungarian equivalent for terms that come so naturally in English when talking about the game/setting. It's an interesting process.

But you get the inspiration from P&P campaigns for the setting and the lore, and that is how you as to say extend it:) So eventually you first start in hungarian, then think of something which gives other ideas, which eventually might manifest in english, i reckon.
But even so the translation is top-notch.
(I basicly stopped watching everything with hungarian subtitles as they have been so bad in the last 10-15 years. Most of the time i even look up the news in english, as there are so many bad translations out there, the overall writing quality in Hungary has deteriorated quite greatly. So if you are able to do the other way around express yourself properly in english, that is a great feat on its own already.)

Originally posted by Randi Rabbit:

Originally posted by Nordil(Hun):

Actually what is even more astounding, is the level of translation.
Because i am fairly sure they play it originally in hungarian, as it is their own built world, and this level of translation to english is something that is very rare or perhaps even unique.

That is impressive, I had no idea, damn, reads so well too. Wouldn't have known unless you mentioned it. Good lookin' out Boss.

Is one of the few things that folks might overlook. Also it never hurts to give praise when it is deserved. (I bought the game in EA:) since i love dark fantasy and darklike settings. Though i have to yet buy the DLC-s. But i will. Just first need to check out some new features in other EA games i support:P)

[Steinaar]

Originally posted by Lost Pilgrims Studios:

🖤

I kind of agree with the OP's original thought, I had the same one. The price point is too high for the ultimate package. Sometimes in life less is more, less = more people = more overall sales. I think this needs an immediate adjustment or you'll be discarded because most people will not buy into those prices.

For an indy game like this, no matter how well it may be to some of us. You'll have a lot of people that shrug it off instead of trying it. Even though the base game is lower, most gamers want all the content and instead of trying the base game they will convince themselves that just not playing all together is better than playing and not having all this content they will desire. With the prices it can't be considered and is priced outside of the target audience.

but who am I to tell you, just look at the total sells on xbox...kinda grim. should be way higher. I've owned this game here for a long time now but want to support you on console as well but not really willing to give in at those prices for the full bang.

food for thought

[Lost Pilgrims Studios]

FYI Praetor sales are more than half of the normal game's on Xbox. A percentage four times higher than that on PC which is very interesting to see.
Of course, we understand that someone who bought the game already might not want to pay that price again on another platform. That's totally reasonable.
If someone's main goal was to support our work, there are ways with lower cuts (i.e.: not to lose ~40% on fees, taxes, etc.).

[Randi Rabbit]

Originally posted by Steinaar:

Originally posted by Lost Pilgrims Studios:

🖤

I kind of agree with the OP's original thought, I had the same one. The price point is too high for the ultimate package. Sometimes in life less is more, less = more people = more overall sales. I think this needs an immediate adjustment or you'll be discarded because most people will not buy into those prices.

For an indy game like this, no matter how well it may be to some of us. You'll have a lot of people that shrug it off instead of trying it. Even though the base game is lower, most gamers want all the content and instead of trying the base game they will convince themselves that just not playing all together is better than playing and not having all this content they will desire. With the prices it can't be considered and is priced outside of the target audience.

but who am I to tell you, just look at the total sells on xbox...kinda grim. should be way higher. I've owned this game here for a long time now but want to support you on console as well but not really willing to give in at those prices for the full bang.

food for thought

This guy/gal gets it, that was exactly my experience, now I know of this masterpiece I'd easily have paid the full ticket price, but I'm not so inclined to do it again on another format, I love the work you've put into the game, but not everyone has a disposable income, sure there's a demo on each system, but I don't wanna miss out on anything just getting the base edition, and Steinaar was on point, I'd have just simply walked away if I didn't find it more reasonably priced else where.

[Steinaar]

Originally posted by Lost Pilgrims Studios:

FYI Praetor sales are more than half of the normal game's on Xbox. A percentage four times higher than that on PC which is very interesting to see.
Of course, we understand that someone who bought the game already might not want to pay that price again on another platform. That's totally reasonable.
If someone's main goal was to support our work, there are ways with lower cuts (i.e.: not to lose ~40% on fees, taxes, etc.).

I want to understand exactly what you mean here, could you elaborate or covey this differently for me please? The first half, so the praetor edition on xbox is selling four times higher than even that on PC and is selling well on console? I want to make sure I understand this correctly. It is selling and well on consoles even the praetor edition? If that is the case I stand corrected. Yeah double buying games is always hard but I hope soon xbox and steam make an agreement for we don't have to keep buying our games over and over.

I still think either way some gamers might see this price tag and be turned off vs giving the game a go. That is what I was really alluding to.

[Steinaar]

Originally posted by Randi Rabbit:

Originally posted by Steinaar:

I kind of agree with the OP's original thought, I had the same one. The price point is too high for the ultimate package. Sometimes in life less is more, less = more people = more overall sales. I think this needs an immediate adjustment or you'll be discarded because most people will not buy into those prices.

For an indy game like this, no matter how well it may be to some of us. You'll have a lot of people that shrug it off instead of trying it. Even though the base game is lower, most gamers want all the content and instead of trying the base game they will convince themselves that just not playing all together is better than playing and not having all this content they will desire. With the prices it can't be considered and is priced outside of the target audience.

but who am I to tell you, just look at the total sells on xbox...kinda grim. should be way higher. I've owned this game here for a long time now but want to support you on console as well but not really willing to give in at those prices for the full bang.

food for thought

This guy/gal gets it, that was exactly my experience, now I know of this masterpiece I'd easily have paid the full ticket price, but I'm not so inclined to do it again on another format, I love the work you've put into the game, but not everyone has a disposable income, sure there's a demo on each system, but I don't wanna miss out on anything just getting the base edition, and Steinaar was on point, I'd have just simply walked away if I didn't find it more reasonably priced else where.

I am happy you did give this game the chance and at the end of the day to support indy devs. We agree with each other on this topic, I don't want the price to push the target audience away. I want the devs to make money, this is how they continue to develop into the future. However if I felt these feelings, I am nobody unique in life, and I have the income to spare I know others are going to take these feelings and react on them how I think. At the very least I thought it was worth talking about for a moment.

[Lost Pilgrims Studios]

You guys are a rare breed and we, of course, love and appreciate your passion for the game.

We would have assumed the same but we had to learn from the numbers that the broader audience is different. We sell pretty much an equal number of Praetor copies at full price to when they are on sale on PC. The buy-in is barely different at $80 buck vs $45. For a 10% up in the number of copies, we lose 45% in price so it's net negative. I.e: when we go on sale, we lose money on Praetor, we only do it to make it available to players on a budget / try to motivate players to upgrade (on Steam you can complete your set.)

There's also the 'if you discounted more you would sell more' statement that often comes up, which again is true generally but less so for niche games like ours. Last spring sale we traded a 44% discount for a 42% increase in the number of copies. Now there is a knock-on effect with players eventually buying some DLCs, etc. On the other hand, after every sale, there is a dip in the game's rating which negatively influences the number of copies sold for the following weeks. It's only natural - and I am generalizing again, so this may not be true to any one individual or smaller group, but holds up for the entirety of the consumer base - since pulling the trigger on a game costing $30 warrants the player assessing it longer (read the store page warnings, comments, reviews, etc.) and hence buying it only if they were truly interested. Whereas making that call on $16 is easier, hence more people buy the game who are either not fans of the genre mix Vagrus represents, or just expected something different and did not spend time trying the demo 'cause of the lower price of entry.

So yeah, pricing and discounting are not easy, and again: there are plenty of people out who do not fall into the general trends we see and described above. Also a lot, who will not buy the game at all, regardless of the price, until it's finished (i.e.: confirmed no more DLCs).

Hope this gives a bit of a perspective.
Thanks, cheers,
The Lost Pilgrims team

[Nordil(Hun)]

I had the original game since EA:P
But my backlog is so big, that currently buying the DLC-s is a bit off:)

Still keep up the good work LPS!

And if you have a shop where your merch is physically available and not just ordering online, i may drop by and buy some stuff:P

[Steinaar]

Keep the base game $19.99
DLC $14.99 x2 or x3
Dev Support $9.99

20+15+15+15 = 65 for game and all dlc
on sale for 10-20% only because net negative aspect, you can set the sale limit percentage right?

20% of 65 is 13
20% of 20 is 4

Keep the dev support out of the main package and on it's own. Something a gamer wants to do vs in the main game related package.

This keeps you more appealing again this took me less than five minutes to write and mock up. Looking at an indy game around 60 vs 80 is a big difference and in a gamers mindset thinks of the best game they got for those prices and compares them unrealistically and unfairly.

Shuffle the price points around a little bit because 85 on an indy game, welp that might mean a lot less people will consider. I think your discounts are too heavily applied or only need to be a very rare sale.

The only reason Stellaris gets away with this nonsense is because it's very established and widely known. I own so many amazing indy games I get for 10-20 that gives me the full experience. This is the league you're competing in. This game is worth the 20 initial game price, yes ofc. Then the DLC a little shorter than the price of the full game. DLC can't exceed the base game price, ever, then the debate comes up the DLC needs to equal base game content nonsense.

I am rambling and opening thinking and typing as I think. No proof reading here just my open thoughts as they scramble in my head. What is really cool is you're one of the very rare breeds as well. Most developers I talk to always act like I killed their dog when I talk about price points. When in reality I talk about it because I care. Stay rare and stay cool my friends. I think my point was made here, regardless what you decide to do. I'm glad you took the time to hear me out. Thank you for that much.

[Nordil(Hun)]

Originally posted by Steinaar:

The only reason Stellaris gets away with this nonsense is because it's very established and widely known. I own so many amazing indy games I get for 10-20 that gives me the full experience. This is the league you're competing in.

I wont debate on the financial and pricing issues. (They are here in hungary and i really dont know how it is with taxes and stuff specifically for this industry, but basicly every 1 dollar out of 5 is just the VAT:P I know the basic taxes, contributions etc, but not the sepcifics. And i am a hungarian economist, just different field of expertise. So i could look up stuff and make remarks, but it would cost me a lot of time and am lazy to do it:P)

Stellaris gets away for a different reason. The space civlike 4x genre is an established genre. Since Master of Orion 2:) Stellaris also is not made by an indie studio, but Paradox, who have a lot of well known games. I really want and wanted to buy Stellaris, but i do not like their pricing practice, so most likely i just buy for EU 4 a few additional DLC-s. (2 or 3.)
Paradox also openly uses this kind of an as to say market practice. They make a game and many things are hidden behind DLC wall. EU 4 again a very good example. From nearly the start for instance if you do not own a DLC as an european continent it is not worth to take Reformat(Calvinist) as a religion because the Fervor system is hidden behind a DLC.

If we want to make comparisions, with indie studios, Rimworld would be a better one.
They also made a quite unique game, and have added 3-4 DLC-s out. They are a bit better as an example or a comparision.
Also these days the 80 dollar for AAA games does not mean anything, as many junk stuff is coming out that is completely not worth the money, is also often not even properly categorized, just "splatted" with a genre remark, that will add more sales.
(Veilguard for instance. I looked at it and it is so shallow "for a supposedly this and that rpg" that it cannot even fit into even the JRPG category, even ARPG is pushing it. It is more like one of those action games, where you just have to time your button press and that is it.)
So there are hardly any AAA games worth out, because they forgot how to make games and what is important about them(having fun, atmosphere and immersion), and are trying to be the mouthpice, or some group or another.

[Steinaar]

Yeah you're right on the Stellaris example. I'm big fan of Stellaris and I can't keep up with all the DLC. It's absurd and I own it on several platforms.

However for the 80 buy in price, I can get games like RDR2/GTA5 for those prices and this game in the same price points as those games. Yes a lot slop from AAA games these days yes but I think these games can't be compared. Gamers will compare them with the prices matching. A quick look at both games and they will move on. If I am going to spend this much money I want this much product. No matter if the two games should be compared or not. It's the price point.

It's called sticker shock. (mostly my point in this topic)
Buy a new vehicle lately, you experienced that magic.
Looks at vehicle, looks at price, repeat, but why.

If the numbers were shuffled around a little bit, even if the end up being the same some how, less discount percentage, everyone wins. Less is more theory still applies. I know a lot more people would be willing to buy into a less price point, however you move the numbers around. Make it less sticker shock and everyone wants all the content. Nobody wants a partial game.

The devs are right, much like Stellaris example earlier, rebuying something you already own to support is harder at those prices. It would be easier for something new I didn't already own or play...at least I got a new experience.

Just repeating myself now.

I want this game to sell well, I want this developer to not be net negative and earn for their next project, I want gamers to enjoy a good product at a reasonable price to boot, I want wins for everyone.

Right now gamers are looking for new studios to promote into our future gaming world as we replace the current AAA studios (too big for britches) we built up before. Gamers are breaking down the big companies but we need to find and invest into the little companies to get bigger at the same time or we won't have new games to play in the future.

If you understand your target audience and what they want.
If you understand the economics and what the consumer is willing to pay.
These are fundamental core building blocks on being successful.
insert ColHansLanda <"That's a bingo!" from: Inglourious Basterds>