The introduction story is... odd.

[mikufanboy]

And a big red flag for me. An expansionist empire similar the likes of Rome, goes to war usually due to stagnation of the mind and land growth, resource strain, or famine, as is per the course of events in our history for instance, so that part makes sense, as does any Geneva convention rule breaking because lol this is war. But 'Gods' getting angry at an empire for only doing what's natural and then having a mental break from being hypocritical? That's what constitutes as a god in this story? Please, someone tell me there's more to this story then that introduction, if I have to expect this kind of narrative in the game I simply won't be able to immerse myself from the shocking lack of logical perspective in matters. How the Gods came to be, or even the empire originally without waging war in the first place with all their advanced technology is probably more of a deeper question, but we probably don't need answers for that anyway.

[Malarky Enthusiast]

Nah do your own homework, go watch a letsplay or something.

[suejak]

Genocide, slavery, and crucifixion are only natural huh? <_<

The gods have long in-game articles written about them. I don't think a god needs to be some kind of infallible or clearsighted being to be a god, as is clear from things like Roman mythology. They are petty and emotional creatures. The game seems to suggest this is true in the Riven Realms as well.

[mikufanboy]

Originally posted by suejak:

Genocide, slavery, and crucifixion are only natural huh? <_<

The gods have long in-game articles written about them. I don't think a god needs to be some kind of infallible or clearsighted being to be a god, as is clear from things like Roman mythology. They are petty and emotional creatures. The game seems to suggest this is true in the Riven Realms as well.

Yes, and there are far more atrocious examples of war, especially during a Rome-esk time period, though describing it would likely make this game too grimdark perhaps, and it's not really of concern. There's no such thing as a gentlemen's full on war, and anyone who's ever said so is likely a revisionist.

The definition of what God means would like to disagree with you. Even if you water them down they're suppose to be and were shown to be, powerful beings. To think such mighty beings would give a damn about mortals is one thing (we're not trying to make Achilles here or anything) but to have what equates to a severe mental disorder is certainly pause for a critical review. I don't mind if there's a 'truth' to this later in the game that goes into detail, but frankly they could have just replaced the 'gods' and instead said dragons or something and it would have been far more believable of an example. Well, I guess I'll just take the first guy's advice and spoil myself on a lets play rather than play it.

[Ninth Hour]

Originally posted by mikufanboy:

...but to have what equates to a severe mental disorder is certainly pause for a critical review. I don't mind if there's a 'truth' to this later in the game that goes into detail, but frankly they could have just replaced the 'gods' and instead said dragons or something and it would have been far more believable of an example...

What is so unbelievable about Gods who act as if mentally disordered? Gods in real world mythology often exhibited human flaws, like vanity, cruelty, pettiness, vindictiveness, malice, foolishness, and even cowardice. Whether it be Norse, Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Central American, or Native American mythology, you do not have to look far to see both the best and worst of human traits represented in the spirits or deities of the various pantheons.

Moreover, they're gods. If they act in ways that seem inscrutable, arbitrary, or capricious, it is because their actions don't have to hew to human logic (or in some cases, human morality). Zeus raped women, producing bastard demigods, and both he and his progeny were still venerated at one point in human history.

Even Athena, who was generally viewed as a benevolent goddess of wisdom, art, and learning, had a dark side. After Arachne outperformed her in a weaving contest, Athena punished her by turning her into a spider.

[mikufanboy]

Originally posted by Ninth Hour:

Originally posted by mikufanboy:

...but to have what equates to a severe mental disorder is certainly pause for a critical review. I don't mind if there's a 'truth' to this later in the game that goes into detail, but frankly they could have just replaced the 'gods' and instead said dragons or something and it would have been far more believable of an example...

What is so unbelievable about Gods who act as if mentally disordered? Gods in real world mythology often exhibited human flaws, like vanity, cruelty, pettiness, vindictiveness, malice, foolishness, and even cowardice. Whether it be Norse, Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Central American, or Native American mythology, you do not have to look far to see both the best and worst of human traits represented in the spirits or deities of the various pantheons.

Moreover, they're gods. If they act in ways that seem inscrutable, arbitrary, or capricious, it is because their actions don't have to hew to human logic (or in some cases, human morality). Zeus raped women, producing bastard demigods, and both he and his progeny were still venerated at one point in human history.

I agree, but whenever these moments occurred it almost never came about because of mortal vs mortal situations. Usually, something or someone directly interferes with them or their sanctuary. Whenever they acted for selfish gains, they had a reason for it, and didn't just go genocide everyone only to cry tears later for things that did not concern them (Hel anyone?). More to the point why I mentioned if there's a 'truth' as to why these 'gods' acted the way that they did. We didn't get a reason, and instead got a hypocrisy, which is why I'm so perturbed by this introduction. Considering how much this game banks on it's narration, it should surely have an explanation and not just lol gods be bipolar sometimes, right? Gods not behaving in a manner that's not 'logical' is not befitting of a being of power and intelligence to begin with, they'd have likely expired and become undone from their own hubris and fallacy, if not, surely anyone could become a god in this story. Not to say all gods behaved that way, but when they didn't well, bad things happened to them in their stories every time.

[Smoebo]

I'm not too concerned with all that because it's also implied (especially in the short stories on their website) that the victors (the new 3 gods and the Twelve) control the narrative. Therefore the whole story of what the old gods supposedly did, is any of that even true? Is it partially true?

[Ninth Hour]

Originally posted by mikufanboy:

I agree, but whenever these moments occurred it almost never came about because of mortal vs mortal situations...

Not completely true. The Trojan war was, on one level, a conflict between the forces of Troy and the various Greek city states. But, as portrayed in the Iliad, it was also one in which the Gods interfered. Apollo, Artemis, Ares, and Aphrodite sided with the Trojans, while Hera, Athena, Poseidon, Hermes, and Hephaestus aided the Greeks. Apollo at one point rescued Hector, on the field of battle, and later guided Paris' arrow into the heel of Achilles.

The rest of Greek mythology contains similar examples of the gods meddling in human affairs, not because they were directly offended or encroached upon, but simply to help their favorite mortals, either against other mortals, or to escape dire situations. Athena disguised Odysseus as an old man, to help him reclaim his lands from intruders, after he finally returned home. Zeus struck down Idas, who was about to kill Polydeuces, one of his many half-mortal sons.

Similarly, one can intuit that the gods in this game are not impartial but have some interest in the affairs of mortals- to the point that they are willing to punish them. It's not a very unusual story, even in our world.

[mikufanboy]

Originally posted by Ninth Hour:

Originally posted by mikufanboy:

I agree, but whenever these moments occurred it almost never came about because of mortal vs mortal situations...

Not completely true. The Trojan war was, on one level, a conflict between the forces of Troy and the various Greek city states. But, as portrayed in the Iliad, it was also one in which the Gods interfered. Apollo, Artemis, Ares, and Aphrodite sided with the Trojans, while Hera, Athena, Poseidon, Hermes, and Hephaestus aided the Greeks. Apollo at one point rescued Hector, on the field of battle, and later guided Paris' arrow into the heel of Achilles.

Throughout Greek mythology, there are similar examples of the gods meddling in human affairs, not because they were directly offended or encroached upon, but simply to help their favorite mortals, either against one another or to escape dire situations. Athena disguised Odysseus as an old man, to help him reclaim his lands from intruders, after he finally returned home. Zeus struck down Idas, who was about to kill Polydeuces, one of his many half-mortal sons.

Similarly, one can intuit that the gods in this game are not impartial but have some interest in the affairs of mortals- to the point that they are willing to punish them. It's not a very unusual story.

That's why i said almost, and I also said in the beginning we're not creating a situation similar to Achilles here. This story isn't so much gods musing with a mortal or picking sides as it is a pure genocide attempt for purely irrational reasons that work against the very purpose they started their cleansing in the first place. It's one thing to be irrational it's another to be so dumb you light a fire to burn a forest and then cry about why the forest burnt down later, it just doesn't fit for a being as intelligent as a god to be on par with a child. If there was more behind it I could fathom it. I don't recall such a situation of that magnitude happening in the Greek tales, do you? Though, I guess that depends on the opinion one has for believing what is considered epic or just another Sunday...

I suppose you could argue the sentiment that a single infidel is the same as a planet of infidels in their eyes, though if that were the case it still doesn't explain why they grieved afterwards, surely such powerful beings understood from the start what happens when you kill a being as even gods do on occasion kill each other.. But I digress, usually to piss a god off that much you'd have to directly affront them, I don't recall a whimsical god that blows up planets because they feel like it (Unless we're talking those shounen animes meant for kids).

[[__h.stickeye_]]

dear lord, stop overthinking.

[suejak]

He is obviously just debating for the kicks :D

There's nothing especially confusing about gods destroying a world for its sinfulness and then moving on to other realities.

It's also pretty clear that we don't really understand how the gods work or why they did what they did, which is appropriate for a mortal perspective. Maybe it was actually a war between gods and not divine punishment per se.

[Ra Archon]

Spoiler: there is no main story in the campaign, just several quests lines with no impact on the world or gameplay. Do not expect much storywise.

[Heron]

You don't even have to look into ancient religion for acts of petty, divine revenge and cataclysm. Just read the bible, more specifically the story about Noah's Ark. Or the part where God slays all Egyptian firstborn (innocent children!) because reasons. The only difference here is that the Christian God shows no signs of regret.

Tldr; Human qualities in God(s) (or at least the stories about him / them) are commonplace.

[One-Winged Harpy]

I have no problem with gods meddling with human affairs, but I was, too, a little confused by introduction trailer. Everything they describe there (conquest, cruelty etc) was what 100% of ancient societies did on our planet, so it's not obvious what was so different in the Empire that pissed Gods that much. As I see it, that is a myth similar to Great Flood (that's also "God got pissed cause sins and killed everyone on Earth except Noah and his pet zoo). But I would also want it to be better explained.

[Heron]

Originally posted by No way, Nikki:

Everything they describe there (conquest, cruelty etc) was what 100% of ancient societies did on our planet, so it's not obvious what was so different in the Empire that pissed Gods that much.

The difference is that the Gods in Vagrus' setting have the actual power to manifest their rage themselves, opposed to historical gods in historical societies.

[kirill-busidow]

Originally posted by mikufanboy:

And a big red flag for me. An expansionist empire similar the likes of Rome, goes to war usually due to stagnation of the mind and land growth, resource strain, or famine, as is per the course of events in our history for instance, so that part makes sense, as does any Geneva convention rule breaking because lol this is war. But 'Gods' getting angry at an empire for only doing what's natural and then having a mental break from being hypocritical? That's what constitutes as a god in this story? Please, someone tell me there's more to this story then that introduction, if I have to expect this kind of narrative in the game I simply won't be able to immerse myself from the shocking lack of logical perspective in matters. How the Gods came to be, or even the empire originally without waging war in the first place with all their advanced technology is probably more of a deeper question, but we probably don't need answers for that anyway.

Totally agree with you.

Probably developers missing some details when builing lore for world.