Gets boring real quick

[[__h.stickeye_]]

Let me pad the criticism here by first off stating that this is one of, if not THE, most original game setting to come out in the last few years. The devs are great and really listen to the gamers and the game has come along nicely.

However, and this is a big one, the game is just too repetitive and doesn't make me want to invest in the beautifully crafted setting.

I just want to explore and go on character quests and sell some stuff every now and then.

Sure there needs to be danger and impetus, but save scumming 30 times just to get to the Shelter with some marble just so I have enough money to buy supplies so I can go on ONE quest is just bad mechanics.

And dear lord, if I have to buy any more supplies I swear ill burn every city down just so there aren't any left and we can all die.

In short, yes its a game about a comitatus, but wheres the fun? I don't have that much spare time to grind my life away.

And to add to the chorus, I am disappointed that the map is not fully implemented.

And yes, I understand what expectations are versus reality.

[Cisco2950]

I am on my 4th comatati and except for the first couple hours establishing myself, not having a problem. Who said anything about fun, this is a job/mission/calling in life. easy solution play some other game. I appreciate the challenge, and get upset when my caravan gets taxed, then attacked and then I have to leave stuff behind, that's part of the challenge in continuing to survive. Have you tried Frostpunk on challenge mode?

[Kittenbait]

Originally posted by __h.stickeye_:

Sure there needs to be danger and impetus, but save scumming 30 times just to get to the Shelter with some marble just so I have enough money to buy supplies so I can go on ONE quest is just bad mechanics.

1. The game is expecting you to pay off some enemies off instead of fighting: you can also use things like beast lures to help with this. You can also hand over your caravan animals and slaves, money, and maybe you just have to give that marble or other goods up. Annoying, but if you need to do it too often you're doing something wrong.

2. If you would rather save scum than do the above, scout. When you hit a block, reload and scout the offending square to see what the chances are. Maybe you need to wait out a turn, or make a detour, possibly with a forced march or another day's travel.

3. Stick to the roads as much as possible until you've built up a powerful comitatus (and got some armaments - anything less than bronze isn't good enough) that can beat enemies. Roads are basically entirely safe, unless you count getting clobbered by road tax.

4. You can deter some enemies with the right caravan items. There's a magic candle that makes undead less likely to attack (not perfectly) and something for Yrg, etc. Although I generally don't bother with any of these.

The point where it gets really unpleasant is in sandwyrm country (roughly west of Mirage and south of Avernum). Bring LOTS of beast lures / supplies to distract them whilst you flee, or have a very strong comitatus with plenty of spare workers and slaves because sandwyrms are very good at eating your crew even when they lose combat rounds.

[Nordil(Hun)]

Originally posted by Kittenbait:

Originally posted by __h.stickeye_:

Sure there needs to be danger and impetus, but save scumming 30 times just to get to the Shelter with some marble just so I have enough money to buy supplies so I can go on ONE quest is just bad mechanics.

1. The game is expecting you to pay off some enemies off instead of fighting: you can also use things like beast lures to help with this. You can also hand over your caravan animals and slaves, money, and maybe you just have to give that marble or other goods up. Annoying, but if you need to do it too often you're doing something wrong.

2. If you would rather save scum than do the above, scout. When you hit a block, reload and scout the offending square to see what the chances are. Maybe you need to wait out a turn, or make a detour, possibly with a forced march or another day's travel.

3. Stick to the roads as much as possible until you've built up a powerful comitatus (and got some armaments - anything less than bronze isn't good enough) that can beat enemies. Roads are basically entirely safe, unless you count getting clobbered by road tax.

4. You can deter some enemies with the right caravan items. There's a magic candle that makes undead less likely to attack (not perfectly) and something for Yrg, etc. Although I generally don't bother with any of these.

The point where it gets really unpleasant is in sandwyrm country (roughly west of Mirage and south of Avernum). Bring LOTS of beast lures / supplies to distract them whilst you flee, or have a very strong comitatus with plenty of spare workers and slaves because sandwyrms are very good at eating your crew even when they lose combat rounds.

1.) Beast lures are completely unreliable. Sometimes they just lower 2-3 points, other times 15-17, and sometimes 150...so good luck.

2.) That requires a certain build to get a good enough scouting chance...also a lot of micromanagent. Adding every day 3 more button pushes, for usually not really useful info feels bad game design. (Just imho.) As sending 20 scouts out will still not give you more than 70% chance. You would need scrying and get a lot of your folks skills up to increase scouting chances. 1 point raises workforce around 1%...so i am guessing same for scouting chances.

3. Not true, got attacked by outlaws on roads a few times.

4. Beast lures are supposed to be like that but dont work. Against sentient enemies you can often give cargo or items, but there are some against whom you need to sacrifice a mount or a person. Dampsmoke and charms are a must to have, but you are lucky if you run into these folks. Also dampsmoke costs barely anything whereas a charm can have quite a price.

5. Not just Sand Wyrm, also ghoul country. Ghouls can have 750 strong groups, and if the beast lures just lower 2-3 points you are effed majorly. Cuz at such times even the supplies do not seem to lower the battle strenght very well. Inconsistent lure and appease. (Probably depends on appease chance.)

[Ninth Hour]

Well, I like the game overall. A major issue, though, is that every task you undertake is so darn time consuming.

Traveling to quest sites requires repeated toggling between the overland map and the chart, to figure out if you're close. Then you have to move around the general radius until you happen upon the node you're looking for.

Figuring out profitable trade routes requires you to open the price charts and do a lot of scrolling and scrutinizing of different parts of a huge table to figure out if it's worth selling a particular good in a particular place. Then you have to make sure that you're not overstocking on a good, since you'll get diminishing returns that will ruin your profits. Or, if you want to stockpile a good, you have to figure out if there is more than one location on your itinerary at which you can sell it for a profit. All this requires yet more time and micromanagement.

Traveling across the map requires quite a bit of time, especially as the game second guesses you and always stops you once you've used up all your movement points, even when you still have march points left (and selected a route using those march points). You have to keep reselecting the route to confirm that, yes, you want to march.

Crew combat requires you to wait for the random results to resolve. I have not found a way to speed it up.

Companion combat is also quite slow. There are usually long pauses before the AI makes up its mind as to where to move. Again, there seems to be no button/option to move things along.

And almost all quests require back and forth travel between 4 or 5 different locations. Or have events that require you to wait 1 or more in-game weeks to refresh. The delay in gifting opportunities, for your companions, feels especially contrived and seems to serve no purpose other than to delay access to their quests.

Collectively, all these delays lead to inflated play times. I have 190+ hours logged in Steam but I estimate that only 60 to 70% of that time is actual gameplay. The rest of that time is either studying tables, wrestling with the UI, clicking back and forth between the overland map and chart, and just waiting for the AI to finish what it's doing.

Sometimes, playing this game feels like a second job. I know that some would argue that the tasks I described ARE part of the gameplay but I feel like processes could still be streamlined or speeded up.

As many hours as I've put in, I am nowhere close to completing my first run. I am close to 4 years in-game and still have a bunch of unresolved companion quests (and some that never even triggered) and a slew of fetch quests. I am only 50% of the way done preparing Tectum Carvos for its war, even after multiple trips back and forth between the eastern and western parts of the map.

If I weren't an old school gamer (with a lot of patience for jank), I would have given up a long time ago.

[[__h.stickeye_]]

Originally posted by Cisco2950:

I am on my 4th comatati and except for the first couple hours establishing myself, not having a problem. Who said anything about fun, this is a job/mission/calling in life. easy solution play some other game. I appreciate the challenge, and get upset when my caravan gets taxed, then attacked and then I have to leave stuff behind, that's part of the challenge in continuing to survive. Have you tried Frostpunk on challenge mode?

Yes, I have played frostpunk and the challenges, its a great game.

[[__h.stickeye_]]

What I am seeing in the more specific gripes is exactly what is slowing the game down and stopping it from being more enjoyable.

[kirill-busidow]

Originally posted by Ninth Hour:

Well, I like the game overall. A major issue, though, is that every task you undertake is so darn time consuming.

Traveling to quest sites requires repeated toggling between the overland map and the chart, to figure out if you're close. Then you have to move around the general radius until you happen upon the node you're looking for.

Figuring out profitable trade routes requires you to open the price charts and do a lot of scrolling and scrutinizing of different parts of a huge table to figure out if it's worth selling a particular good in a particular place. Then you have to make sure that you're not overstocking on a good, since you'll get diminishing returns that will ruin your profits. Or, if you want to stockpile a good, you have to figure out if there is more than one location on your itinerary at which you can sell it for a profit. All this requires yet more time and micromanagement.

Traveling across the map requires quite a bit of time, especially as the game second guesses you and always stops you once you've used up all your movement points, even when you still have march points left (and selected a route using those march points). You have to keep reselecting the route to confirm that, yes, you want to march.

Crew combat requires you to wait for the random results to resolve. I have not found a way to speed it up.

Companion combat is also quite slow. There are usually long pauses before the AI makes up its mind as to where to move. Again, there seems to be no button/option to move things along.

And almost all quests require back and forth travel between 4 or 5 different locations. Or have events that require you to wait 1 or more in-game weeks to refresh. The delay in gifting opportunities, for your companions, feels especially contrived and seems to serve no purpose other than to delay access to their quests.

Collectively, all these delays lead to inflated play times. I have 190+ hours logged in Steam but I estimate that only 60 to 70% of that time is actual gameplay. The rest of that time is either studying tables, wrestling with the UI, clicking back and forth between the overland map and chart, and just waiting for the AI to finish what it's doing.

Sometimes, playing this game feels like a second job. I know that some would argue that the tasks I described ARE part of the gameplay but I feel like processes could still be streamlined or speeded up.

As many hours as I've put in, I am nowhere close to completing my first run. I am close to 4 years in-game and still have a bunch of unresolved companion quests (and some that never even triggered) and a slew of fetch quests. I am only 50% of the way done preparing Tectum Carvos for its war, even after multiple trips back and forth between the eastern and western parts of the map.

If I weren't an old school gamer (with a lot of patience for jank), I would have given up a long time ago.

You played a lot, so you have some information.

Is there some sort of main story for game?
Does world lore gets explained somewhere (not in Codex, but actually in-game) about Emperor or Calamity etc.? Some hard to find secret locations?

[[__h.stickeye_]]

The answer to all three questions is No, Not Really, No

[Ninth Hour]

Originally posted by kirill-busidow:

You played a lot, so you have some information.

Is there some sort of main story for game?
Does world lore gets explained somewhere (not in Codex, but actually in-game) about Emperor or Calamity etc.? Some hard to find secret locations?

The closest to main story is the mystery of the cursed winds. You eventually figure out the cause behind this phenomenon but, as far as I can tell, that's the end of that plot line (for now). You don't receive any quest to resolve the situation. Everything else is basically a side quest in service of your chosen ambition.

You uncover the lore in fragments, as you play the game, even if you don't read the Codex (which I don't- at least not in depth).

The central conflict that you uncover, as you progress through the game, is that between the remnants of the oppressive, slave-owning empire and the relatively progressive, humane Dragon nations. I say relative because there are no "good" sides. But the Dragon nations, for all their machinations, do come across as more sympathetic overall. Given that the patron deity of the Empire is Sergorod, whose domains are war, vengeance, and curses, it seems clear who you are supposed to root for.

For now, the war between the Empire and the Dragon nations is a cold one- they plot against and attempt to undermine each other but eschew outright bloodshed (for the most part).

Your involvement is this grand conflict is peripheral and ultimately driven by self-interest.

[Kittenbait]

Originally posted by Nordil(Hun):

1.) Beast lures are completely unreliable. Sometimes they just lower 2-3 points, other times 15-17, and sometimes 150...so good luck.

2.) That requires a certain build to get a good enough scouting chance...also a lot of micromanagent. Adding every day 3 more button pushes, for usually not really useful info feels bad game design. (Just imho.) As sending 20 scouts out will still not give you more than 70% chance. You would need scrying and get a lot of your folks skills up to increase scouting chances. 1 point raises workforce around 1%...so i am guessing same for scouting chances.

3. Not true, got attacked by outlaws on roads a few times.

4. Beast lures are supposed to be like that but dont work. Against sentient enemies you can often give cargo or items, but there are some against whom you need to sacrifice a mount or a person. Dampsmoke and charms are a must to have, but you are lucky if you run into these folks. Also dampsmoke costs barely anything whereas a charm can have quite a price.

5. Not just Sand Wyrm, also ghoul country. Ghouls can have 750 strong groups, and if the beast lures just lower 2-3 points you are effed majorly. Cuz at such times even the supplies do not seem to lower the battle strenght very well. Inconsistent lure and appease. (Probably depends on appease chance.)

Different appease items have different effects depending on the opponent. Beast lures are good for beasts. Outlaws mostly want goods or money. Ghouls prefer living flesh. You'll always have goods and money, as for the rest take what you need for where you're going.

Scouting every turn is not time effective - I would prefer the game gave an encounter chance estimate for nodes automatically, and leave the scouting for finding mission locations. But if you want to save scum and minimise effort, scouting a problem node is quicker than trying to brute force with 20 save scums.

It is exceptionally rare to be attacked on a road. I've played about 2500 game days in my last two games and I can count the number of times I've been attacked on a road on one hand. And that's potentially still true counting instances by hands rather than fingers.

[Nordil(Hun)]

Originally posted by Kittenbait:

Originally posted by Nordil(Hun):

TL,IWT (i wrote this:P)

Different appease items have different effects depending on the opponent. Beast lures are good for beasts. Outlaws mostly want goods or money. Ghouls prefer living flesh. You'll always have goods and money, as for the rest take what you need for where you're going.

Scouting every turn is not time effective - I would prefer the game gave an encounter chance estimate for nodes automatically, and leave the scouting for finding mission locations. But if you want to save scum and minimise effort, scouting a problem node is quicker than trying to brute force with 20 save scums.

It is exceptionally rare to be attacked on a road. I've played about 2500 game days in my last two games and I can count the number of times I've been attacked on a road on one hand. And that's potentially still true counting instances by hands rather than fingers.

I think you misuderstood what i meant regarding the lures. I know and knew that different items have different appease effects and probably base chances on the enemies. Like dampsmoke very good effect on YRG, but also beast lures and supply work in a way.
Undead nerco likes jewelry, arcane texts, or supplies and so on.
The thing is, with all this considered it seems there is another additional roll for this, which you can influence with your skills that affect APPEASE. I am guessing that for say every increase in con (which i think gives Appease, if not than persuasation) you gain 1% or 1,2% chance increase in your appease chances.
So i am guessing that if you are successful on an appease chance against ghouls, than your Beast lures will give the -150 battle strength reduction. Same for Sand Wyrms.
However if you fail they will just remove 15-17. And if you fail critically then it is just 2-3 points if even that much. Or it maybe -150 on critical success and 15-17 on success and so on. Not sure about the numbers is just a hunch.

Well you were lucky then i ran into a Deven->Crimson->Mines of Plenty->Salum->Crimson->Torag run twice into tax collectors (fully mounted crew with 12-3 movement since i still did not get the dwarven compass and i am 3(!) years in already.) both times 55 bross, that is within i think less than 3 weeks. \\ It seems that the tax is based upon the goods you transport. Once i had full or a bit more of my comitatus having blue crystals transported and it was 100 bross, on my way back with bronze, copper, tin, iron and coal i just paid 55 \\ Also during this round trip mentioned in the first line i got attacked by 2 orc crews on the road and twice by tainted mob. Yeah bad luck it seems.

Actually i got Tectum Corvas up to preperadness, now i am doing the Shaman's quests. I only lack the fire tribes blessing, which is a pain, but it is more of a pain that even after i did the Kotrar shaman quest with the Winds...and took them to Kotrar they dont want to live but travel with me...damn you 4 extra mouths!
Tectum Corvas spoiler
Now i need to get certain factions assist against a sand wyrm genocide via a trap. I actually have every single faction available to ask for assist beside the Shamans.

My main issue is that it seems Gor's quest is not advancing. I defeated EVERY FRIGGIN arena at least twice beside the one in Deven, because after i completed that one, i have gotten the Arena Champion title. But nothing happens. So i keep fighting in Torag and Avernum, and whereever it is possible nothing happens:(

Also for the past 2 years ingame the second encounter with Libertatum or whatever his name is has not occured, so i cannot advance Garrick's story line neither. Because i need to meet him 3 times alltogether to get the new quest for Garrick.

[suejak]

Err, your choice to savescum 30 times to get to Shelter is indeed a choice, not a requirement. I have yet to savescum even once.

I think there are some high-end quests that might require savescum because it doesn't make sense to reroll an entire campaign for them, but the vast majority of the game can be played ironman without issues.

[Nordil(Hun)]

Originally posted by suejak:

Err, your choice to savescum 30 times to get to Shelter is indeed a choice, not a requirement. I have yet to savescum even once.

I think there are some high-end quests that might require savescum because it doesn't make sense to reroll an entire campaign for them, but the vast majority of the game can be played ironman without issues.

Well maybe i am doing something wrong, or the mount bug does not occur for me.
I calculated out my consumption, my workforce and it all fits. With half my cargo filled up with food it still lasts for 12 days, and i still have not found the dwarven compass in my 3rd year. In my last run i managed to get the chance encounter after 5(!) years. (Also there seems to be a certain save bug, which affects usually available crew and goods and quests. You reload a previous save, and all those that happened seem to be counted as occured, so it may entirely possible that with one such eff up one does never get the dwarven compass, since the event triggered but you had to reload an earlier save, and for some reason it will FLAG the encounter as already happened. And i have yet to have the dwarven encounter occur TWICE in the same run.)

My insight is though sadly scarce, as i have yet to do a few things, and i focused purely on the combat aspect of the companions since after a 7 year lasting run i know what to expect. Also i save scum most of the time to save time. Because a fight with all the loads calculations etc can take up minutes, whereas a save and load just to avoid that fight takes 5 seconds. Sorry to say this but since fights are usually NOT WORTH IT, because they might eff my comitatus, i dont really gain a thing i will in these cases reload. Unless it is jakhri hunting pack those i allways fight since 500-800 supplies is gained!