Serious Balance Issue! Stun from basic attacks.

[SomethingIncarnateTV]

Greetings Warlords.

I know some of you will say this is just a part of the game, and currently it is, but it's bad for balance and gameplay. Yes, stagger and stun are two different labelled mechanics in the game, but they achieve the same - stuns, and they're both bad in their own way. In addition to this, there is quite a variety of different stun effects, with different durations, cooldowns, recovery times, etc. - they all have a different label and have the same thing in common - they're all abilities that produce a stun effect. Very few anti stun abilities exists in the game, most only have one, but they don't affect the stuns from the basic hits, that can are produced from both melee and ranged attacks, irregardles of it comes from a player or a unit - they will still stagger the player - which is the equivalent of a minor stun.

Why is player stuns an issue in a pvp game - mass-scale pvp game even?

..well, first lets review what a stunlock even is - there are various definitions, but they're all generally explaining the same thing - To use multiple stuns and immobilizing effects in succession to prevent an enemy from fighting back or escaping - which is exactly what player's are experiencing in Conqueror's Blade. Considering the fact that in a pvp game where melee and ranged combat is the core conflict resolution method, you have to be able to fight and least be able to attempt to escape when you need to, but when you can effectively be put into a situation where you can do neither, or even recover from that situation, then it's not balanced, and thus bad for gameplay. Giving a player character an ability to produce actual stun effects, isn't by it self bad, IF the PvP game only revolves around a few combatants, but when everything can produce a stun effect and player characters can have several abilities that can produce stun effects, and this is now on mass-scale in terms of amount of combatants, then it's bad. Because what happens when it's only a few combatants where one or two has a stun ability, obviously one or two characters will take a stun and inevitably take damage, unless a teammate absorbs/tanks that damage, but when there are many combatants and one or two receives a stun, those will be pummelled and received massive amounts of attack, and even if they actually survive that pummelling, they're surely not going to survive, because they can't even attempt to escape as each basic hit will stop whatever action they're doing, including moving. They have two choices if they want to try and escape, either they can attempt full flee where will just take hits and be stopped in their tracks to receive further pummelling, or they can try to block as much as they can - which eventually will lead to their slow but sure death.

Does that sound like a lot of fun for the ones who's on the receiving end? I certainly don't think so. You could say, they can do the same to others, so that makes it balanced, but that it actually doesn't, it's just bad excuse not to fix it. For many this will be gamebreaking, because it's very frustrating and annoying not to be able to do anything in a fight, you're supposed to do things in, and when it keeps happening, most will end up quitting and uninstalling, because it's simply not very fun, entertaining or very rewarding to participate in.

So the more experienced player might not agree with me here, and just say it's part of the game and one should just suck it up and get good at the game, but fact of the matter, is that it's just not balanced or fun to play this sort of gameplay where one side gets to obliterate the other side, where it's more a matter of who strikes first and keeps spamming the basic attacks, sprinkled with some abilities, where some just further aggravates the stun situation.

Are the developers aware of this and do they have any intention on correcting this?

[Kyutaru]

Are you afk during battle? The game is built like any fighter-style game, combos depend on hit-stun to connect. You have to use stunbreakers like skills or dodging or rely on safe strings to not get stunned in the first place. This isn't Chivalry where you are guaranteed to trade hits with the enemy until the one with more health or armor wins. Learn the game mechanics. It's a perfectly balanced mechanic to include in games because it's how every versus fighting game has worked since Street Fighter. Plenty of them even had slow characters with obvious attacks that needed to use super armor skills or stun immune frames to connect, heck TERA and Black Desert Online have a similar combat style. It's a Chinese game so they like their fighting-style game mechanics (like Age of Wushu and Perfect World also have).

You dislike it. That's nice, but it's not a game tailored to your liking and works well for the type of game it is trying to be. In fact without it I could see no reason in even attempting to play a light armored dual blade build, or heck anything that isn't some hulk in heavy armor swinging around a polearm for maximum damage, reach, and defense. Yeah, it's a learn to play issue.

[Prince Vegeta]

I don't think it's that simple, for example the Polaxe hard stun combo can't be escaped even with the stun breaker moves you are referring to. But it's fun to watch Steam users water issues down to "git gud" all the time. I'm sure it's helping someone out there.

By the way, you should've learned to block and parry in Chivalry. I dunno what kind of newb you were playing against where you went hit for hit with each other in a game where an archer can parry a zweihander all day long with his knife. :P

[Kyutaru]

I said you can trade hits not that it's what I ended up doing. Did you even play Chivalry? The 360 greatsword whirlwind knights were practically a meme. Getting four decapitations in a single slice was a common occurrence when I last played.

As for stuns, there's various classes that are built for engaging troops and classes built for engaging heroes. Poleaxe is one of those anti-hero classes that have strong single target straight forward thrusts that are optimal for dueling. Yet classes also have stunbreakers and moves that render them immune to stun, the Glaive has several for example. Poleaxe isn't the only one with a hard stun either, Nodachi has one and I'm sure others do too but Poleaxe is all about connecting with those moves one after another. Failing this means your enemy escapes and lives to see another day but I've had no issues fighting one personally so it seems to be a subjective experience. Honestly if you think it's that easy to faceroll with something, use that weapon and watch how it gets destroyed by experienced fighters. You may simply not be very good. Or you're complaining about under lvl 30 gameplay without seeing how radically the game shifts from a DPS meta to a tank meta.

I'm not here to help you do anything but move on with your life. Play the game or don't.

[Prince Vegeta]

Of course I played Chivalry, would be how I know you can't just go hit for hit. Seems kinda irrelevant though i'm not the one who claimed something untrue about the game eh?

I bet he's a pole or db fighter.

[エキノックス・Equinox]

Git Gud

[Just | Sentinel]

CB is not centered around dualing and i hope never will be, only broken class atm is Longbow btw, you can arguee that the hit box of Poleaxe and Dual Blade is to big, if you get caught as range hero you definitely were out of position and as heavy or med armour you easiely survive the first rotation of Poleaxe and Dual Blade and then you get them in their downtime

Dank Nugs eredeti hozzászólása:

I bet he's a pole or db fighter.

my guess is you are Longbow

[Prince Vegeta]

There's so much wrong with that post i'm not even going to bother lol.

[Just | Sentinel]

maybe musket, either way one of those classes using skills which make full aoe damage to units instead of mitigated damage for every unit hit, no complains there

[SomethingIncarnateTV]

Kyutaru eredeti hozzászólása:

Are you afk during battle? The game is built like any fighter-style game, combos depend on hit-stun to connect. You have to use stunbreakers like skills or dodging or rely on safe strings to not get stunned in the first place. This isn't Chivalry where you are guaranteed to trade hits with the enemy until the one with more health or armor wins. Learn the game mechanics. It's a perfectly balanced mechanic to include in games because it's how every versus fighting game has worked since Street Fighter. Plenty of them even had slow characters with obvious attacks that needed to use super armor skills or stun immune frames to connect, heck TERA and Black Desert Online have a similar combat style. It's a Chinese game so they like their fighting-style game mechanics (like Age of Wushu and Perfect World also have).

You dislike it. That's nice, but it's not a game tailored to your liking and works well for the type of game it is trying to be. In fact without it I could see no reason in even attempting to play a light armored dual blade build, or heck anything that isn't some hulk in heavy armor swinging around a polearm for maximum damage, reach, and defense. Yeah, it's a learn to play issue.

You're comparing a 3d warfare pvp game with a 2d arcade style fighter game, sorry but that just doesn't work that way. And the hit to stun you're saying depends on combos connecting, which is quite far from how it works in CB - IN ACTUAL FACT, all it takes is ONE HIT, not a combo, but ONE BASIC HIT - and there are NO abilities that protect against that form of stun - which in this game is called a stagger effect, but it's still a stun, even if's very minor. Guess what happens whan you can keep sustaining basic hits after basic - you achieve the equivalent of a stunlock.

Just | Sentinel eredeti hozzászólása:

CB is not centered around dualing and i hope never will be, only broken class atm is Longbow btw, you can arguee that the hit box of Poleaxe and Dual Blade is to big, if you get caught as range hero you definitely were out of position and as heavy or med armour you easiely survive the first rotation of Poleaxe and Dual Blade and then you get them in their downtime.

For the record, I'm not looking at this game as if it's supposed to be meant for duelling, because it's not, which also why the stagger/stun effect becomes a problem, because it's not just one or two who're producing this effect from basic attacks - it's literally EVERYONE, including units. It's not a matter of trying to trade hits for hits, but what this stagger/stun effect actually achieves. Also, I'm not level 30 nor am I under that level but I'm not level 60 either, but just because I'm not max level, doesn't mean what I'm saying is a just a matter of inexperience. Because with any game, you can learn to work around issues, but that doesn't stop them from actually being an issue, you've effectively just become numb to it. So no this is not a learn to play issue, I'm far from the only one who've said anything in regards to this issue, and those who don't agree with me, are most likely those who'd fall into the category of being a "fanboy who's defending it".

Dank Nugs eredeti hozzászólása:

I bet he's a pole or db fighter.

Actually, I mainly play longsword and shield.

Dank Nugs eredeti hozzászólása:

There's so much wrong with that post i'm not even going to bother lol.

Which post?

To those who happen to think that the game is greatly balanced and there are no issues with the stun effects from basic attacks or even abilities, try looking at the game from a perspective in regards to balance, gameplay and design.

[Prince Vegeta]

Just | Sentinel eredeti hozzászólása:

CB is not centered around dualing and i hope never will be, only broken class atm is Longbow btw, you can arguee that the hit box of Poleaxe and Dual Blade is to big, if you get caught as range hero you definitely were out of position and as heavy or med armour you easiely survive the first rotation of Poleaxe and Dual Blade and then you get them in their downtime

Dank Nugs eredeti hozzászólása:

I bet he's a pole or db fighter.

my guess is you are Longbow

This one.

[Dada]

If you are a ranged class just runnaway versus a poleaxe or double dagger they will stun you to the death... you can't do anything, but there exeption a poleaxe or dagger can't do anything versus a mounted ranged hero, just turn around him and shoot him.
So there is always a way to defeat a superior class.

Don't forget your unit too, you can hide behind shield unit or set up a trap with crossbow or musket unit, so just make sure the poleaxe follow you and surprise 20 crossbowman at the corner...

The bow class or musket (grenade) is really usefull against static defensive position during a TW, by doing damage to the archer unit on a long distance without expose themself or by doing progressive damage to the spearman wall with the musket class by throwing grenade, so this class can have a huge advantage thats depend the situation so i think its legit if they are not able to stand against a poleaxe in direct fight.

[Zantetsuken]

∞ Incarnate eredeti hozzászólása:

To those who happen to think that the game is greatly balanced and there are no issues with the stun effects from basic attacks or even abilities, try looking at the game from a perspective in regards to balance, gameplay and design.

I think that's what you need to be doing here. You're complaining about a common "stunlock" mechanic broken by dodging that has existed in at least five other MMOs. You must also not be aware that this game has been in development for six years. They did used to have no stagger on hits and the result was that light armored characters were overpowered and had near infinite stamina to run away and continue to shoot you. God help us if we go back to Archer's Blade, though with the state of longbows currently we're not far off.

Then you have this musket user making troll comments against people who argue from the perspective of balance, gameplay, and design because it's a given that he doesn't want to be stopped from kiting by a melee class getting hits on him despite having skills to break away. I don't think either of you are attempting to look at the game from the perspective you're suggesting but instead just want to out-kite with a musket or out-heal with a longsword your enemies and not have to think about positioning or strategy. Certain classes always have a higher skill requirement in games, like dual blades being utterly destroyed in their light armor if they aren't good at avoiding damage. Play a different class if the one you're on is too hard for you. Ultimately if what you're asking for did exist then no skill scrubs would have their easier duels but high skilled pros would make the same classes you play blatantly overpowered.

Balance exists to serve the highest skilled players with technical classes and the lowest skilled players with simple brute force moves that are easily avoided. It doesn't exist simply at your own skill level and if you're having a hard time with these classes then either avoid them in combat (consider them a bad matchup for you and let someone else deal with them) or play a different class that counters them. The issue here is you went into this game expecting it to have similar logic to other MMOs instead of looking at the game for its own logic. Don't compare RPGs to an action game. Though the fighting game comparison was spot on because Chinese games all are based on 3-D fighting mechanics. You do know there are 3-D fighting games right?

[LORDAX2]

ok

[SomethingIncarnateTV]

Zantetsuken eredeti hozzászólása:

I think that's what you need to be doing here. You're complaining about a common "stunlock" mechanic broken by dodging that has existed in at least five other MMOs. You must also not be aware that this game has been in development for six years. They did used to have no stagger on hits and the result was that light armored characters were overpowered and had near infinite stamina to run away and continue to shoot you. God help us if we go back to Archer's Blade, though with the state of longbows currently we're not far off.

I'm not aware of how long it's been in development, but saying that they used to have no stagger, just means they took a wrong approach to attempt to remedy a balance issue, which just have cause a different balance issue, which affects much more broadly. If light armored characters were overpowered as a result of no stagger, then they should've considered changing how the light armored classes worked, instead of changing it so it affects everyone negatively. As it is now, one doesn't have near infinite amounts of stamina that are inexhaustable, to the contrary, it's much more a infinite resource the exhaustable, that needs to replenish over time. Even when attacks don't cause stagger, character models are still affected by collision, so if a lightly armored target got caught in between a unit, it would still have troubles getting away - which to a certain degree would be reasonable. No stagger is definitely not the issue with lightly armored players being overpowered.

Zantetsuken eredeti hozzászólása:

Then you have this musket user making troll comments against people who argue from the perspective of balance, gameplay, and design because it's a given that he doesn't want to be stopped from kiting by a melee class getting hits on him despite having skills to break away. I don't think either of you are attempting to look at the game from the perspective you're suggesting but instead just want to out-kite with a musket or out-heal with a longsword your enemies and not have to think about positioning or strategy. Certain classes always have a higher skill requirement in games, like dual blades being utterly destroyed in their light armor if they aren't good at avoiding damage. Play a different class if the one you're on is too hard for you. Ultimately if what you're asking for did exist then no skill scrubs would have their easier duels but high skilled pros would make the same classes you play blatantly overpowered.

You mention a really good issue, where the stagger from basic hits also causes imbalance, namely ranged weapons, making it so they can almost keep on kiting forever. I mainly play longsword and shield, and personally I think giving classes abilities that gives them superior self-healing capabilities, is a problem when not all have them, or there is a dedicated healer class. That basic hits from melee and ranged attacks, cause a lot of issues, not just stunlock, but you can effectively keep melee player characters from doing what they're supposed to do, especially if there are enough focussing their attacks on that player. This happens irregardless of class, but it happens especially when playing melee oriented classes. Stagger from basic hits, is an issue and it needs to be dealt with, obviously it means it would also have to be balanced differently - but that is a completely different matter, and large differences in level, amount of class abilities, gear ratings, units and so on between opposing players, will also be a huge balance issues, especially in a mass-scale pvp game.

Zantetsuken eredeti hozzászólása:

Balance exists to serve the highest skilled players with technical classes and the lowest skilled players with simple brute force moves that are easily avoided. It doesn't exist simply at your own skill level and if you're having a hard time with these classes then either avoid them in combat (consider them a bad matchup for you and let someone else deal with them) or play a different class that counters them. The issue here is you went into this game expecting it to have similar logic to other MMOs instead of looking at the game for its own logic. Don't compare RPGs to an action game. Though the fighting game comparison was spot on because Chinese games all are based on 3-D fighting mechanics. You do know there are 3-D fighting games right?

There are several definitions to gameplay balance, where it's not just a matter of symmetry, counters, scope, competability, viability etc. A simple way to look at it, gameplay is all about making choices and in a poorly-balanced game, many of the choices available to the player can essentially be rendered useless.

I'm well aware that players will be both below and above my own skill level, so I weren't expecting to be able to just dominate every opponent I meet in the game. No, the issue is not at all what you're saying, I didn't come into the game expecting to have similar logic to other MMOs or other rpgs, and I'm most certainly not comparing an action game to RPG games - when exactly did I compare it to an RPG? Doesn't matter whether it's 2D or 3D fighting game, it's a completely different TYPE of game, where most of the elements from both games won't translate well into the other game and vice versa. And no, it wasn't spot on, because it doesn't require combos to stun one in CB, all it takes is a SINGLE BASIC HIT from either melee or ranged, to which there isn't an effective reliable counter, and there aren't anything in the game that limits or protects against this - therse are not the same type of stun the abilities can cause.

This isn't rocket science, stagger caused by basic hits from melee and ranged attacks, simply isn't balanced, and it's not good for gameplay. Saying that it keeps lightly armored players and certain classes from being overpowered, only points to one thing - that those elements be specifically addressed, rather than implementing something that affects the balance detrimentally for everyone, especially melee classes.

[Prince Vegeta]

I love just casually chatting to get called out as a troll for no reason. It's right up there with the excessive git gud posts. Some days you guys are just plain cancerous.