Forgot how fun this game is

[chaosguy]

Coming back into the fold after last playing as a young lad back in the 80s (yeah, guess that makes me OG). So, nutshell- Axis wins in about 6 or less, or not at all? Outside of some pretty horrendous rolling by Allies I don't see how they'd last longer as while the game is pretty abstract it does mirror the Allies unstoppable economic engine pretty well.

I've been watching some of Board Game Nation's tournament play and am surprised both that Allies get buffed AND Axis players will often give away IPC on top of that in a bid to get to play them. Sure they start with more material on the board, but that edge is going to slowly or not-so-slowly grind away. Is it just Wehraboo madness or is it common to make it happen for the Axis that quick? It's been a while- so wondering about the meta.

[JJpower]

Depends on which rule/version you are playing, I dont know much about BGN but I was a GTO player, old Revised Edition favors Allies side and people try to balance it by bidding
(hope I recalled it right, it was usually 7g/8g bid which gives Axis more army on the baord)
In Steam 1942 version, I will say it is barely a par on both side, many top players prefer Allies over Axis, atm intermediate players may prefer Axis more, average win rate is around Allies 45:55 Axis(data from dev available)

Axis win in 6 rounds is possible but not common if you defend it right, and most Allies win in 10+ rounds, what you have to do is survive Axis rush. May be you can tell us what happened in first few rounds?

[simon_hibbs]

In competitive ranked play in the game the win rate for Axis is about 55%, but this is skewed by the low rank stats. Axis is much simpler to play. Allies is very tricky, especially playing UK effectively, it's much easier to screw up. So at lower ranked play the stats skew even more in favour of Axis. IIRC at Platinum level it's more like 52% in favour of Axis, so very close. You will also notice at Silver or Gold if you ask for a ranked game and don't specify a side, about 60% of the time you'll get Allies, because lower ranked players prefer Axis, again because it's easier.

The tournament games on BNN use tournament rules, so the winner is whoever controls the most victory cities after 5 hours, which is usually 5 turns. This skews the game a lot compared to going for the usual victory conditions. It's all about tempo. The strategies they are using for Allies wouldn't work as well in a longer game because Axis would invest in more long term assets.

For example if Russia invests in an extra fighter and does hard trading, a Germany that slogs it out with infantry has a chance of grinding them down. It's not a bad strategy as such, it can work even in longer games, but it's particularly suited to a very high tempo game with hard early trading to grab targets quickly, and that outs a premium on for example being able to quickly divert fighters to defend India or a Pacific VC captured by USA. That's a nice idea for tournament, but not as useful for longer games.

[chaosguy]

Originally posted by JJpower:

and most Allies win in 10+ rounds, what you have to do is survive Axis rush

So this is what I was inquiring, in terms of wining it seems regardless of tournament or standard play, there's an understanding that with the massive discrepancy in IPC generation the Axis does need to 'rush' to win. I suppose the follow up thought here is how many 10+ turn games does Axis win? Would be interesting to know the stats there. I'm not suggesting that doesn't happen occasionally, but I'd posit that it requires a one sided dice battle early on that doesn't 'even out' that game, perhaps because it lead to a knockout on one of the Allied players.

Originally posted by JJpower:

May be you can tell us what happened in first few rounds?

Here's a good example I watched recently- tournament rules, but regardless of how many turns they could play to, it was over on turn 5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAiBHhf5EEE

Originally posted by simon_hibbs:

In competitive ranked play in the game the win rate for Axis is about 55%, but this is skewed by the low rank stats. Axis is much simpler to play. Allies is very tricky, especially playing UK effectively, it's much easier to screw up. So at lower ranked play the stats skew even more in favour of Axis. IIRC at Platinum level it's more like 52% in favour of Axis, so very close. You will also notice at Silver or Gold if you ask for a ranked game and don't specify a side, about 60% of the time you'll get Allies, because lower ranked players prefer Axis, again because it's easier.

That makes sense, thanks.

[Juggernaut]

Originally posted by chaosguy:

I've been watching some of Board Game Nation's tournament play and am surprised both that Allies get buffed AND Axis players will often give away IPC on top of that in a bid to get to play them. Sure they start with more material on the board, but that edge is going to slowly or not-so-slowly grind away. Is it just Wehraboo madness or is it common to make it happen for the Axis that quick? It's been a while- so wondering about the meta.

With respect this is barely mid-level play on the online board. If that. It's mildly annoying they claim a title like "world championships" when they represent like 1% of the playerbase. That being said, its a different game entirely, so I guess its the world championships of that. They would get smoked here, and we would probably be super confused and get smoked there. These guys make what online players would consider to be basic purchasing and positioning errors. If I saw their video 1, round 1 buys on ladder I would assume I was playing a new player, thats how different the games are. Almost incomparable. Time constraints skew the meta heavily from what would be considered normal in online play. Just for starters moscow is the main strategic goal in online and completely irrelevant in FTF tournament. Personally I'm not convinced FTF meta is very developed either, but I'd have to play that format.

You are correct that Axis needs to "win" early, but usually by taking a commanding board position and not necessarily winning outright, although that is obviously preferable. Axis regularly take tournament games on even rolling, even into the late rounds. I wouldn't say they are favoured though. It's definitely not as black and white as "win by six or lose."To be fair to you I dont think you were suggesting that seriously though.