Proper Soviet and German flags?

[OmarAndOmar]

I was wondering why is the Soviet flag upside down? And why are there no clear Swastikas in the game design?
Shouldn't the two main protagonists of WW2 have their proper flags represented? Especially that the main page clearly shows flags of the US and the UK...

[aardvarkpepper]

I don't know about the Soviet flag. Isn't it left-right reversed instead of upside down? It's been brought up before. I don't remember if there was any answer.

Swastikas is easy. Banned in Germany, maybe elsewhere. And some players don't want to control "Nazi Germany" anyways for various reasons. So they used the Wehrmacht symbol.

[OmarAndOmar]

Originally posted by aardvarkpepper:

I don't know about the Soviet flag. Isn't it left-right reversed instead of upside down? It's been brought up before. I don't remember if there was any answer.

Swastikas is easy. Banned in Germany, maybe elsewhere. And some players don't want to control "Nazi Germany" anyways for various reasons. So they used the Wehrmacht symbol.

- Yeah I meant "reversed" (English is not my first language and in French it's the same word for both :) )

- "Nazi Germany" was just Germany back then. The UK was a colonialist state back then and I am pretty sure most players are against colonialism but still play with the "colonialist UK" from the 40's. And i am also pretty sure that many players who pick the Allies aren't big fan of Stalin and Truman either:)

As for the Swatstika ban (which is also applied in France), it doesn't apply to historical and artistic projects (for exemple they are allowed in movies about WW2, so I think they would definitely be allowed in a game about WW2).

My point is that this is a game based on history and strategy, not about political beliefs. Again, I really doubt Stalin is in the hearts of most players who pick the Allies

[tallcupofcoffee]

In my humble opinion, the swastika is still so reviled as well as hurtful to so many, I'm ok with a historical inaccuracy.

[Lozmoid]

I would also like to see the historically correct flags.

[sirhahnsirhahn]

I think the flags are fine. Adding a swastika to the game won't, in my opinion, add any value, and it will offend many.

[OmarAndOmar]

Originally posted by sirhahnsirhahn:

I think the flags are fine. Adding a swastika to the game won't, in my opinion, add any value, and it will offend many.

What about the people from Hirochima, Nagasaki and Tokyo (more than 300.000 civilian killed in a few hours), Nankin (between 100.000 and 400.000 civilians killed in a few weeks), Ukraine (4.000.000 civilians killed in a year), etc...?

Would it make sense removing all flags and symbols from the game to avoid potentially offending them? Or does this logic only apply to massacres commited by the Germans?

[bearfieldlee]

It would indeed make the same kind of sense if we were talking about sense but we are talking about a very complicated political agenda driven by people who must take us all for fools.

[OmarAndOmar]

Originally posted by bearfieldlee:

It would indeed make the same kind of sense if we were talking about sense but we are talking about a very complicated political agenda driven by people who must take us all for fools.

[tallcupofcoffee]

We haven't even gotten to 10 posts yet and the thread is teetering on the brink.

[sirhahnsirhahn]

Omars, I've read your response to what I wrote and I'm not sure how to receive it. What symbol do you think that players from Japan would find offensive? Someone asked specifically about the swastika. Thats what I was responding to.

Lets keep in mind, the developers didn't decide which icons to use. They took them right from the game. Is anyone offended by the symbols currently in place?

[OmarAndOmar]

Thanks for your response.

You said "it will offend many". But the Swastika is part of the offcial German flag from WW2.

Why would anyone be offended by the German flag from WW2 in a game about WW2?

Is anyone offended when they see German or Soviet flags in movies about WW2 (Saving Private Ryan, Ennemy at the gates, Inglorious bastards, etc..)?

Why is this "historical censorship" only applied to Germans and not to the other countries available in this game?

[aardvarkpepper]

@OmarAndOmar:

Rational business goes with the money.

Money comes from people. People that don't make decisions based on pure logical reasoning. Personal experience, shaped by cultures experienced, affects beliefs and the decision making process.

The real question is not "why" the swastika has a stigma. The question is 'whether or not" it does.

In your experience, in your culture - perhaps not so much. In others more so.

Originally posted by OmarAndOmar:

As for the Swatstika ban (which is also applied in France), it doesn't apply to historical and artistic projects (for exemple they are allowed in movies about WW2, so I think they would definitely be allowed in a game about WW2):

You know the swastika has a stigma in some cultures. But there is a difference between knowing a thing in an academic sense, and understanding it from everyday experience.

Originally posted by OmarAndOmar:

Why would anyone be offended by the German flag from WW2 in a game about WW2?

Is anyone offended when they see German or Soviet flags in movies about WW2 (Saving Private Ryan, Ennemy at the gates, Inglorious bastards, etc..)?

Consider again the references you made. Where in there do you see the Nazi hero that lionizes a stigmatized ideology? No, when you see a movie with a German protagonist like "Valkyrie" with Tom Cruise, or "Schnidler's List", it's of someone fighting *against* the Nazis in some capacity. And all the references you made all had Allied hero protagonists, right?

Why do you think that is? I believe it's not a coincidence.

There's also a difference between *watching* something and being an *agent*. If you watch a historical documentary and see a Nazi flag - it has nothing to do with you personally. It's part of the story, or backdrop to the story, but it's not *you*.

Contrast to taking on the role of Germany in World War 2. You could say Axis and Allies is supposed to be about the military, not political, aspect of WW2.

But people don't make their buying decisions based on finer logical nuances. They go with what they "feel".

Would you like to play a game as a transgendered fairy rainbow kitten unicorn? I could tell you all about the wonderful and interesting gameplay. But probably it's a non-starter after that first sentence. Right?

That's what I mean by everyday experience. There's the theoretical academic argument, then there's how it all plays out.

Originally posted by OmarAndOmar:

Why is this "historical censorship" only applied to Germans and not to the other countries available in this game?

If you'd like an academic theory - say the victors write the histories. But also, that the loser's ideology stops, frozen in that moment in time, that they lost. It may adapt and evolve, but it's only ever a shadow of the original.

Think about those that use swastikas. Not those using the swastika from a cultural background that precedes Nazi ideology - but the swastika in the sense of Nazi Germany. Where do you see that with people saying everyone should try to live together in peace? If it's not used in that sense, it's used as a symbol of defiance and empowerment. I don't say it's *never* used in other ways, but that's the message the media spreads, that's a popular understanding in some cultures - including the cultures that I think most readers in this forum belong to.

Now think of the American flag. War crimes during World War 2, sure. But America isn't solely defined by that history. America's history continued and continues, over the next seventy five years plus, associated with the ideas of democracy, human rights, and freedom. I don't say that's *right*, and of course America has its detractors - but without debating the validity of pros or cons, the point is that America's identity and its symbols are not aligned with a single particular vilified ideology in the targeted sales demographic.

. . . I think. It's just a theory.

[76561198870661734]

The soviet flag being backwards/reversed is a legitimate bug we just never really noticed until recently. As for the other imagery, the board game also doesn't make use of the traditional Nazi Germany imagery in any official edition of the game. Such imagery would also prevent the game from being sold without special modification in some territories, such as Germany for example. Our current imagery in the game is in line with the board game experience, outside of the issue with the Soviet iconography being reversed.

[OmarAndOmar]

Originally posted by aardvarkpepper:

@OmarAndOmar:

Rational business goes with the money.

Money comes from people. People that don't make decisions based on pure logical reasoning. Personal experience, shaped by cultures experienced, affects beliefs and the decision making process.

The real question is not "why" the swastika has a stigma. The question is 'whether or not" it does.

In your experience, in your culture - perhaps not so much. In others more so.

Fair point. Logic and historical accuracy matter less than adapting to a specific market within a specific culture when the objective is to sell a product. I get it. For instance if the main targeted market was China (and given Chinese people were easily offended), I guess the Imperial Japanese flag would be censored too.

I am just too attached to A&A (and history in general) to see this game as a mere product.

Thanks for taking the time to respond!:)