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It's going to be very useful in ashlands which seems to come with many new undead enemies.
so even if your stance, that i don't agree with is, that all damage values are fine, you can't be fine with it's stamina use?
stamina regen is constant. food only increasing the maximum.
so with a 40% stamina usage increase you are removing lots of fun and slow down all movement. it is of course VASTLY worse in long fights compared to the draugr fang bow.
a reduction to 12 stamina/s makes perfect sense, unless you really hate fun/balance.
It's in line with other weapons. Higher tier weapons' stamina cost is offset by skill levels, greater degree of attributes with good food and higher strike damage which is especially advantageous when you need to take advantage of sneak attacks or when counter-attacking staggered enemies.
I have absolutely zero trouble using spine snap even with my mid-range bow skill.
Draugr fang vs. Spine snap is not any different from Frostner and Porcupine or Black metal axe and Jotun bane. You can consider it a sidegrade and keep using draugr fang for time being. It's not a problem.
this massive stamina drain trade-off also only effects bows.
when mistwalker got crafted i didn't think: "wow how great, it is 100% useless rightnow, but maybe in the next biome it will be marginally worth using if my sword skill is extreme high maybe...."
mistwalker is a flat 100% upgrade compared to blackmetal sword.
you craft it, you are excited and it replaced the old weapon. it replaced the old weapon with a sword skill of 0 and with a sword skill of 100.
it also increased stamina use by 2 stamina/s compared to the previous sword instead of 4!!! (spine snap)
and adding further upgrades beyond level 4 for spine snap would certainly fix the damage/stamina issue and the upgrades to 2, 3 and 4 are not using eitr, so having 2 more added wouldn't be a horrible resource dump in that regard i guess.
but honestly having a slight damage increase and a stamina use reduction to 12 stamina/s would just be a simpler way to make it an at least clear upgrade, rather than a:
"it might be useful in the future..... maybe..... "
(we are assuming, that the bow can always be upgraded to tier 4 btw, which it can't rightnow, but that is just beta stuff)
wouldn't u just agree, that having the bow be a flat nice upgrade be lovely and fun?
compared to what it is now?
you don't think:
"well i can't muse mistwalker now, because i don't have the absolute best food and my skill isn't high enough."
NO, you craft mistwalker, it is a flat upgrade, the stamina use isn't a real concern, skill doesn't matter.
it is ONLY bows (for normal weapons, disregarding magic), where this matters.
and also again spine snap had the weird increase of stamina use by 40% compared to the last bow.
a 40% increase in stamina use with stamina regenerating at an always constant rate. (more stamina, doesn't make it regen faster) is unfun, dumb design.
"I have absolutely zero trouble using spine snap even with my mid-range bow skill."
being able to use it isn't the same as it being better than draugr fang, which it isn't.
it is NOT better than the previous bow. that is the issue.
the fact, that bows are the only weapon, where you need a very high skill to use better ones is just an annoyance on top, but not the primary issue here.
skill or no skill draugr fang is the superior bow.
"Draugr fang vs. Spine snap is not any different from Frostner and Porcupine or Black metal axe and Jotun bane. You can consider it a sidegrade and keep using draugr fang for time being. It's not a problem."
this is false, it is NOT the same. black metal axe does 8.21 damage/stamina. jotun bae does 8.44 damage/stamina. jotun bane also ads a bunch of poison damage, which is a good elemental damage source effecting lots of enemies (unlike spirit damage)
so jotun bane is a clear absolute upgrade compared to the blackmetal axe. it also only increased stamina use by 2 points and not 4 or worse 40%.
so again bows are unique in how much stamina drain is going on with them and more important skill is.
and why is it ok for you for a new cool bow to be a downgrade being just fine?
i WANT to be able to use the new cool bow. but i don't want to downgrade my gear just to look cool.
mistwalker, jotun bane, himmin afl, etc... etc... ALL are clear absolute upgrades from the previous weapons, that they replace of the same category. all of those also increase stamina use by 2 points btw.
do you think the idea, that all new weapons would be downgrades are very situation would be a fun design?
if you don't, then why are you making excuses like this for the new bow spine snap?
just let the devs buff it a bit by reducing stamina use to 12 and a slight damage buff and there you go, we achieved a clear upgrade and FUN!
Not every weapon is bis when it's unlocked on its respective biome. Other examples are Frostner, HM bow etc. I personally like this cause it feels not so linear and bringing old relics from previous biomes is cool, imo. Same can apply to some armor too.
Also you don't need to craft Snap Bow right away if you don't feel its need yet. There are definitely other weapons that need some love too, or will do at future (Krom, JB
It's still a mere sidegrade for now, but I actually have the patience of waiting for further updates on early access video game.
As I said, the raw physical damage output makes a difference when aiming for staggers, sneak attacks, and general DPS over shorter time, especially when equipped with stamina enhancements.
There's nothing wrong with draugr fang being better in other situations until the final upgrade tiers unlock.
none of which are resistant or immune to frost. so yeah frostner is straight up great as soon as you get it. actually surprised myself how good it is in the mountain biome, when looking at the data.
the 2nd one you mentioned is huntsman bow. i did a HARD skip on huntsman bow and the same goes for lots and lots of people.
huntsman bow has a stamina/damage ratio of 6.375, finewood has a ratio of: 6.8333 draugr fang has a ratio of 7.6.
you can read on reddit about lots of people fully skipping huntsman bow. the huntsman bow never gets valuable at all. its only advantage is the reduced noise it makes, which is meaningless, when you don't care about deer anymore anyways and draugr fang does lots more damage. the fact, that it also would take 80 iron to fully upgrade certainly doesn't help either.
i'd say huntsman bow is even more dead than spine snap.
but hey huntsman bow isn't the latest bow to get rightnow and doesn't look super cool, which spine snap does, so not that big of an issue...
crazy idea i know ;)
and in regards to waiting for the final 2 upgrades for spine snap to unlock.
ALL discussion is focused around tier 4 spine snap. the spine snap, that you CAN'T get rightnow. the limit of it to tier 2 is not part of the discussion. it is about the highest tier of both bows and weapons compared to each other.
if tier 4 spine snap was an overall upgrade to draugr fang, but current tier 2 spine snap isn't, then i would not care at all. this would be working as intended and be fine or good enough.
so again final upgrade tier 4 spine snap is WORSE than tier 4 draugr fang rightnow and it isn't even close, especially if you include the arrow damage in the calculations, which i skipped.
ah let's do a small bit of math i guess :D :
the highest damage endlessly sustained arrow is the mistlands carapace arrow. it takes 4 carapace to make 20. this means farming the mistlands and takes a lot of resources too. so we ignore that. we look at the easiest high damage arrow to create. the needle arrow.
62 pierce on that.
draugr fang + needle: 138 damage 13.8 damage/stamina
spine snap + needle: 166 damage 11.86 damage/stamina
damage/stamina ratios of course looking even worse now and again compared with fully upgraded bows.
if that is not how the damage with arrows gets calculated, feel free to correct me :)
You shouldn't play early access games if you need them to be perfect from the get-go. The game is never going to be fully enjoyable until the development phase is actually concluded. It can be fun, but it's always going to be missing many things, like late-game biomes, actual use for fish, non-progression features like tar pits, frost caves, cosmetics, and so on.
The solution for spine snap and other weapons already exists, it's just not yet available. There's no point in "perfecting" gameplay for each iteration that is still in development. That's just extra work which will ultimately benefit no-one.
But sure, there's no harm in in-depth look at the numbers, since we actually know of them.
At first level, the differences are pretty obvious. Draugr fang deals 47+5, spine snap 75+5. That's almost 50% increase in piercing damage output by the bow itself, not counting arrows. The difference is even more pronounced if you use low tier arrows, but reduced when using late-game arrows like carapace.
With all upgrades, we get 56 pierce and 20 poison from fang, and 84 pierce and 20 spirit from snap. With carapace arrow the pierce values go to 128 and 156 respectively. 156/128 gives us the damage increase multiplier for snap over fang, about 1,22. On paper, that looks pretty bad in comparison to the stamina cost increase of 1,4, but we're just getting started.
Higher bow skill reduces draw time, by up to 68%. I can't say if it's realistic to think for a player to reach that or not; I don't use bow as my primary weapon, but I haven't died a lot. It's probably not too generous to consider a fire rate of 1/s for calculations. However, bow skill also reduces stamina spent on drawing, so we'll spend quite a lot less stamina per shot than is originally apparent. I don't know what the exact formula for stamina cost reduction is, so I can't calculate based on that. According to the Fandom wiki, maximum effect gained is 83% reduction in stamina cost, which is further halved when the bow is fully drawn. If my math isn't wrong, that will put the stamina cost of fang to 1.7 per second, and of snap to about 2.4, which are then halved after 0.8 seconds in case you want to hold your draw for aiming purposes. That's much more manageable than the base values, especially if you increase your stamina in other ways. I'm not an expert on math or bows, I probably made some errors there. But if you regenerate your stamina at more than 10 per second (at lower remaining stamina values), the actual difference in how much time you need to wait to make up for the stamina spent on the higher tier weapon is pretty meaningless. If you are rested, the 7-11 stamina regen is doubled – you will make up the loss of 0.7 stamina points in a fraction of a second that is unfeasible to take into account except on paper. We could switch from stamina per second to stamina per milliseconds. :p
This is all a simplification and I rounded too many times to give accurate values, but in short, at higher skill levels you will get more DPS at the very small cost of damage per stamina, a regenerating resource which will stay available to you no matter where you go. If you're putting arrows at an enemy in a battle that actually matters, like the Queen, you probably don't want to optimize damage per stamina, or at least you don't want to optimize it at the cost of damage per durability, damage per arrow and damage per shot in case your opponent can be staggered or subject to sneak attack.
If you have both weapons available to you, you'll still want to choose the one whose damage types is most effective against your enemies, exactly the same way as with Frostner and Porcupine.
i never suggested, that an early access game should have perfect balance.
i suggested a simple quick fix, that is just a numbers tweak, that will make it more enjoyable in this early access phase.
also this might come as a shock to you, but the suggestions area might be FOR people suggesting changes to the game :o
i know crazy.
I tried the new Mistlands bow, realized it´s not worth using due to the stamina requirement and now it sits in its chest again and I keep using Draugr Fang, which is disappointing but what can you do.. It´s just not worth the trade right now.