Why I don't find Immersive mode Immersive (in an RPG sense)

[blprice61]

The protagonist is a Viking Warrior. Supposedly a renowned one to be chosen by Odin for this task of defeating the Forsaken. I have severe difficulty imagining a stupid Viking Warrior of Renown.

Immersive mode uses the Nomap flag to increase difficulty and supposedly increase immersion. So let me get this straight, the protagonist evidently failed to learn even the basics of navigation but at the same time learned seamanship well enough to sail a vessel through unknown waters alone.

On top of that, the protagonist is demonstrably literate (able to read runes on stones). Given a deer hide and charcoal (both obtainable on day 1), how is it that he or she is too stupid to be able to create a rudimentary map?

From a role playing perspective none of this fits. I also submit to you that once you've have played a bit with the nomap flag on, it no longer serves much of a purpose because you, the player, learn how to navigate (and basically create a magical, if primitive, compass using the hammer).

Now if you, the player, have any degree of artistic talent, you can sketch on paper or a paint program and create your own maps. This is a player skill, not a protagonist skill. From the RPG perspective it does nothing to add immersion.

In my view, once you, the player, have learned the ins and outs of nomap play, it becomes just a chore, another type of grind. Meanwhile you are stuck role playing a Viking who is a moron.

[esbenmf]

Then don't play immersive mode, there's options.

[VulcanTourist]

Originally posted by esbenmf:

... there's options.

He knows that. Are you being oppositional? He's describing his conclusion - and even how he reached it - so that others might consider it and perhaps start a conversation that influences a change to that game mode.

[Avetembi]

Well technically a 'draw on hide' early game skill would then lead to being able to use the map (and some games make use of this). Making players use a pen and paper map initially could be labelled metagaming or passing through the fourth wall in any case.

From an rp perspective I think using the sliders and going custom options of no map and allowing map later makes sense. If you think about real life before mobile phones etc, people move to a new area and use landmarks to navigate until familiar with the territory. It makes sense to create markers in the actual landscape., particularly makers that could be seen from a boat or a great distance

Game world, like reading/storytelling, makes use of passing through the fourth wall and I think that the no maps function is a way of keeping players on one side of it. Similarly, although you have the option of simply reading the runestones, from an rp perspective you might decide to link them to a higher level skill/age/biome and not click on them until then to simulate being able to read them.

If you believe that the protagonist arrives with all these skills anyway, turning off automapping makes no sense.

[hi friends]

It actually makes sense, for a viking who has fragile bone than skeleton and dies from 2m fall and need child support from black birb. I'd except my viking to have not brain as well tbh

[muchdebate]

Originally posted by VulcanTourist:

He's describing his conclusion - and even how he reached it - so that others might consider it and perhaps start a conversation that influences a change to that game mode.

Well said!

I have to say that the description of "immersive mode" initially sounded to me like "make the game more of pain in the parts mode" but your comment made me rethink it.

[RagnCharran]

Taking away the automap feature makes the game more immersive, because it makes you, as a role-playing player, make a map yourself.

Even the smartest, most well trained in cartography viking had to make their own map. There was no magical force creating one as they walked. They needed, as you have described with your deer hide and charcoal example, to draw a map as they went, measuring as well as they could based on visual training and step counting.

So pick up a pen and paper, or even find a deer hide and some charcoal, and roleplay as a viking by drawing it yourself.

How is that not increasing the immersion?

[VulcanTourist]

There's this trivial little thing called playability....

[Imhotep]

I'm gonna add my two cents. to make it super immersive, since they have the no map option, if they give you a piece of paper and a feather to attempt to draw your own map in game LOL. However, with no map you can actually build a map on the ground with the items in game. :3

[Zep Tepi]

I picked up a cartography table mod and it worked well. It makes it so I can only see the map when I'm at the table. That means that bosses and merchants do show up on the map, but I still have to contend with not getting myself turned around while exploring. It would be nice if the devs implemented something like that.

[Imhotep]

Originally posted by Zep Tepi:

I picked up a cartography table mod and it worked well. It makes it so I can only see the map when I'm at the table. That means that bosses and merchants do show up on the map, but I still have to contend with not getting myself turned around while exploring. It would be nice if the devs implemented something like that.

That is super cool. I didn't even think of that.

[Faceplant]

There are threads that discussed this long before the no-map option was made an official button (it has always been in the game AFAIK). There are many things they could add that would make the no-map options easier to use, yet much more realistic than the current "GPS" map mode. Saying that the map we have in game is anywhere near realistic seems like a pretty long stretch.

As for the Viking being able to make a map:

1. It should be much more crude than the current map to be realistic

2. Without a compass, it's very hard to even make a reasonable map of a coastline. There is the tree in the sky, and the Viking could have used the stars at night and/or the sun position, although that's more difficult near midday. Reference points could be used, but they are only so accurate when you're moving with respect to them, and cannot always be seen.

3. In the water, in a storm or thick fog, or even in the forest in dense trees, all bets are off. In the mist, of course it's impossible. Turn off the map, go into Mistlands, and see how fast you get lost. My first trip in, I was probably 20 meters in when I figured out I didn't know how to get out, and it can take days to find your way out when that happens (and it always happens, so you just have to plan for it).

I would just like a way to make a crude compass. I can draw a crude map when it's possible and lay markers when it's not, but, just having a compass in a storm or in Mistlands would really help.

[blprice61]

It is evident there is some confusion over which definition of 'role playing' I referred to in my initial post. The definition I use comes from the table top role playing games of 40 to 50 years ago. Another definition being used by some is based on 'cosplay' or reenactments. They are two entirely different definitions.

I believe some good points have been raised. One is that the minimap and world map are far too accurate from a RP perspective. However, following right on the heels of that is the fact our characters just do not have the in-game tools they should have to make any other kind of in-game map possible.

In my opinion if you have to resort to something outside the game, you have already broken immersion - whether that be a paper and pencil map or alt-tabbing to something.

Is it possible to fake a compass in game? Yes. Is it possible to fake trail markings in game? Yes. Are they both horrible kludges that are, in and of themselves immersion breaking? Yes.

Finally, to address some points raised specific to sea travel; navigators of that era stuck to coastal travel as much as possible. When fog or bad weather rolled in, either they made for a safe harbor or landing if nearby, or they dropped sails and prayed to their gods that the winds and currents wouldn't toss the out into the maws of "There be dragons".

In the absence of clearly marked trails and plenty of well known closely spaced landmarks, the same was true of land based travel - with the exception you at least didn't have to worry about being tossed somewhere unknown (barring hurricane or tornado).

This pretty much means that the majority of Mistlands ends up being a no-go zone without a large supply of wisplight torches.

At this point I'd like to ask, "Does nomap mode make the game harder, or just more tedious?"

[Salty]

Build yourself a miniature map with a workbench that you can view from a nearby mountain.

[blprice61]

Originally posted by Frogman:

Build yourself a miniature map with a workbench that you can view from a nearby mountain.

I tremble at the thought someone will take that suggestion seriously. Well that and looking forward to seeing the screenshot and going "Woah!".

[Faceplant]

I think you're at least partially confusing navigators that navigated via an existing map, and explorers that discovered new territory, which are vastly different. Native Americans are called Indians because the explorers thought they were in India!

Following an unknown coastline is a valid mode of travel and much safer than venturing out into the ocean. That's normally what I do, and, for the most part it works. Going between two known places on the same island via the coast is a non-issue.

That said, once you get there you don't know where you're at. I've had times where I sailed many times for quite some distance along the coastline between bases, and later realized that they were actually not that far via land travel. That's part of the fun.

Eventually you have to venture off your main island. If it's not far, and you don't hit bad weather it's generally not a problem, but bad weather or fog (especially a big storm) can get you pretty lost. I think that's one of your "There be dragons" situations. Is it realistic to have a map trail across the ocean that you can follow to get home?

Mistlands is certainly not a no-go. I do it all the time, but you have to assume that you're going to be in there for many days, so you pack alot of food. You also try to keep track of where the water is. You're probably not going to be able to haul anything out, so you put a wisplight somewhere visible from the water at the closest water to any mine/skull/whatever and hope you can find it later with a boat to get your loot.

Worst case when you get lost on land, and it can happen in meadows just about as easy as in Mistlands is to follow the coast until you find your ship. Pick a direction and go. If it's a big continent, you could be going for a while.