What's with the slow skill grind? Why hasn't it been fixed or changed? Is everyone really okey with that?

[Rolan McDolan]

So i did a little of calculation with wolfram alpha to get more or less how many skill points you need to get to 30, 50, 80, 100 and those numbers are way too high!
Take the bow for example, how many hits do you need to reach those levels:
lvl 30: 684 arrows
lvl 50: 2416 arrows
lvl 80: 7753 arrows
lvl 100: 20251 arrows
20,251 arrows to reach 100 from level 0...
Take into account that you also lose a % of ALL your skill levels every time you die.
That is WAY too grindy, and for those that say skills don't matter, that is absolutely not true, level 100 grants you 141% MORE DAMAGE and -33% stamina consumption.
If you like using multiple weapons, you're either forced to grind them like the worst MMORPG you've played in your life, OR stay at low levels forever.
To put the cherry on the top, experience points works with "hits", meaning that it doesn't matter if you're fighting low tier enemies with garbage weapons or if you're fighting dangerous opponents and striving to survive.

So... The early access has been out for years, and this has never been changed. Is everyone really okey with this? I'd personally rather vouch for skills to be removed and characters rebalanced than having this absurd level of grinding.

[Ammikaameri]

The game is not balanced around you having your skills at 100. So there is absolutely no issue with "the grind" as you call it. You are not meant to reach 100. It is just additional bonus, a mechanic to reward careful play and planning (not dying so much).

EDIT: Also weapon max damage caps at level 75.

[Darren Daulton]

There is nothing to "fix"

[Faceplant]

In my experience, the skills that you most care about (primary weapon, run, jump, etc) progress appropriately as you play the game. If you choose to try to master may weapons, you will either spread your skill advancement over those weapons, or spend time grinding if that's what you want to do. I don't see a problem with that. That's the choices we make.

In the end, most kills just make the game easier, and there are other ways of making the game easier if that's your goal.

[Nerevar]

bow dmg peaks at 85. the remaining 15 points are purely a buffer for the most part.

also the claim that this is "the worst mmo grind ever" is absolute hyperbole. this is nothing compared to some mmo grinds.

also these hits are only for BOWS. not melee weapons. bow at high skill levels is silly OP.
that comes at a huge cost to keep it balanced.

you are also just reading the wiki there clearly. these numbers do not take the rested buff 50% bonus exp into account.

people just look at numbers and get intimidated by them. because god forbid a player has to put in some effort to get powerful in any game nowadays.

melee weapons gain next to nothing past 75 skill. so the biggest bulk of the exp needed doesnt really do much overall and is merely an exp buffer in case you die.

there is nothing to "fix" or "change" here.

you can keep useing 1 character infinitely and just make new worlds keeping your skill progress but leaveing anything else behind. the system allows for that by default for a reason.

skill are merely meant as a longterm reward for players not dying much and playing well and beeing probaly prepared.

skills arent required to complete the game. they just make it easier. but that "easier" comes at a cost clearly.

[HangarPilot]

Yup. Fine with it. As already stated ... it's more of a "bonus" for doing well.

That said, your math example is in error:

https://valheim.fandom.com/wiki/Skills

Total XP to level 100 is 20,300.6 ...
Each arrow hit grants 1.5XP ... that's only 13,534 arrows ...

Having a rested buff (which one should almost always have as another "bonus" grants a 50% XP bonus so an arrow hit is actually 2.25XP which brings the number of arrows potentially as low as 9023.... Which is well less than half the number of arrows you're claiming.

Also, bear in mind it's exponential. While level 100 is quite daunting ... I normally complete most games around level 50. Level 50 only requires 3649.4XP (1622-2433 arrows depending on how many hits were "rested").

[Draconis]

I think that weapon skill stuff is there so your viking just gets better in what he/she frequently does. To add to immersion. And it works great for that, as a skill of about 50 already makes a difference.

However there is no need to reach the 100 on any weapon. That is just so there is still progress in skills even if you play very long or the same viking on mutliple playthroughs.

Imagine it the other way round: What if we had all major skills maxed out somewhere in the middle of a playthrough? We would not have any skill progress in the second half then. And that kind of stagnation never feels good.


However, the skills you can only get later on (blood magic, elemental magic, crossbows) should start from a bit higher than zero or get a quest you can do to bosst the skills one time. It's a bit unfair to have had 5 additional biomes to train the other skills and start from scratch with these.

Also blood magic really needs some better way to skill it up. Right now the best way to do this is setting up a training camp and leaving your computer alone for.... hours. Playing the game without playing it.
If we learn block with every it we block, why can't we learn blood magic with each hit the shield absorbs?

[Rolan McDolan]

My point is that these numbers are way too high for skills like bow and crossbow, which are very slow by nature. If I wanted to make the game easier, I could mod the game to be at 100 in all skill and remove death skill penalty, but to me it feels like a missed opportinity for this game to have a great skill leveling system (My opinion is that it hasn't).
Take Mount and Blade for example: The game rewards you for the quality of the shot, not simply for "hitting" your target at point blank range with 10% draw strenght. Your melee skills also level with damage dealt, not number of hits.
Also, what should turn your character into a better warrior, hitting a sheep on the head with a stick 10,000 times or defeating a dragon?

A simple solution would be to allow skill exp gain rate to be modified (would be nice if you could manage skills individually) in the server settings.

[Faceplant]

IMO, that seems backward, at least from a balance perspective. If YOU have the ability to do such maneuvers, why do you need the game to augment your skill.

You're also assuming that anyone, ever should grind skills. If grinding skills is necessary, then the game is broken IMO, but I don't think that's the case with Valheim, except for the "broken" magic grind.

[Draconis]

Originally posted by Rolan McDolan:

Also, what should turn your character into a better warrior, hitting a sheep on the head with a stick 10,000 times or defeating a dragon?

Believe it or not, by hitting the sheep 10000 times you would learn more about fighting than by defeating a dragon.
To defeat a dragon you should have learnt a lot before you even try or you won't learn anyting because you .... well, let's say you'll taste great with ketchup.

Also don't underestimate the sheep.

[Nerevar]

Originally posted by Rolan McDolan:

My point is that these numbers are way too high for skills like bow and crossbow, which are very slow by nature. If I wanted to make the game easier, I could mod the game to be at 100 in all skill and remove death skill removal, but to me it feels like a missed opportinity for this game to have a great skill leveling system (My opinion is that it hasn't).
Take Mount and Blade for example: The game rewards you for the quality of the shot, not simply for "hitting" your target at point blank range with 10% draw strenght. Your melee skills also level with damage dealt, not number of hits.
Also, what should turn your character into a better warrior, hitting a sheep on the head with a stick 10,000 times or defeating a dragon?

A simple solution would be to allow skill exp gain rate to be modified (would be nice if you could manage skills individually) in the server settings.

the later is just asking for easier devcommand access basically. just cheat right away. no difference in terms of effect.

and as silly as it sounds : yes. doing 10.000 hits should make you better at sword combat than killing 1 big enemy. the later is silly and has no progression. its instant gratification.

the numbers arent too high. and bow. SLOW? are we playing the same game? bow gets faster and faster drawspeed with every level it gains up to 85.

crossbow is a problem by itself simply because its unlocked too late. same for magic. but also gotta consider that game isnt complete yet content wise and thus this remains to be seen for the future still.

but overall. no changes needed. numbers arent too high.

the fact alone you can level any skill from 0 to 50 in a single evening of play speaks for itself. how is that "too slow?" it aint. if a player decides to really go for it it goes rather fast till 50. then it slows down of course but at 75 you have already reached near max potential for combat skills anyway. run and jump level naturally.

now there is for sure some currently rather pointless skills which do way too little for the exp needed. like riding. swim. fishing. fists. these are all rather lackluster currently. but melee weapons and magic/ranged are totally fine right now in terms of effort vs reward.

[Rolan McDolan]

Originally posted by Faceplant8:

IMO, that seems backward, at least from a balance perspective. If YOU have the ability to do such maneuvers, why do you need the game to augment your skill.

You're also assuming that anyone, ever should grind skills. If grinding skills is necessary, then the game is broken IMO, but I don't think that's the case with Valheim, except for the "broken" magic grind.

The game has a skill system. So why have it at all if it is irrelevant or have little impact (it is not for reasons explained in the original post)?
You do not need to have a high level on your skills, but they definitely help and could prevent a death in a bad situation, so why is everyone just overlooking it like it is a minor detail? 141% damage increase is a BIG bonus, so why have a flawed system around it?
On top of everything, you lose 5% skills with every death, so unless you never die (that would be a very boring experience), you will always be in a Sisyphus situation.

I'm obviously in the minority here, but I don't understand why in every game, hardcore fans have a static vision of the quality of a game, like they are so afraid of any change that they forget that this is an early access and improving the game should be a concern for both the devs and the players.
So yeah, maybe the Devs could at least revisit and/or improve the exp gaining system.

[Rolan McDolan]

Originally posted by Draconis:

Originally posted by Rolan McDolan:

Also, what should turn your character into a better warrior, hitting a sheep on the head with a stick 10,000 times or defeating a dragon?

Also don't underestimate the sheep.

My bad, I know scottish people have it hard with such a fearsome beast roaming their land

[Rolan McDolan]

Originally posted by Nerevar:

Originally posted by Rolan McDolan:

My point is that these numbers are way too high for skills like bow and crossbow, which are very slow by nature. If I wanted to make the game easier, I could mod the game to be at 100 in all skill and remove death skill removal, but to me it feels like a missed opportinity for this game to have a great skill leveling system (My opinion is that it hasn't).
Take Mount and Blade for example: The game rewards you for the quality of the shot, not simply for "hitting" your target at point blank range with 10% draw strenght. Your melee skills also level with damage dealt, not number of hits.
Also, what should turn your character into a better warrior, hitting a sheep on the head with a stick 10,000 times or defeating a dragon?

A simple solution would be to allow skill exp gain rate to be modified (would be nice if you could manage skills individually) in the server settings.

the later is just asking for easier devcommand access basically. just cheat right away. no difference in terms of effect.

That is actually not true, say for example make exp gain by crossbow to be x5, it would increase considerably the average level of it through a play through. You still start at 0, but you do not need to pass 40 hours hitting things with it to get it to 50 or 60 (without dying), which is not the same as setting your crossbow level directly at 50.
In the first case, you still have a progression system (a faster one), in the second, you don't.

[HangarPilot]

Originally posted by Draconis:

I think that weapon skill stuff is there so your viking just gets better in what he/she frequently does. To add to immersion. And it works great for that, as a skill of about 50 already makes a difference.

This! The more you use, for example, a bow ... the "better" or "stronger" you get. Your draw speed increases, damage output increases, stamina use decreases.

Sounds oddly similar to real life experience gain. Run out, buy a bow, and shoot 10,000 sheep targets and see how good you get!

I'm not defending a "static vision" ... in my opinion, the skill system isn't "broken" ... it's a "design decision" to give it a little RPG-ish quality. I would much rather they finish the game or work on optimizing it than go back and overhaul a system that works well.

[Faceplant]

Originally posted by Rolan McDolan:

I'm obviously in the minority here, but I don't understand why in every game, hardcore fans have a static vision of the quality of a game, like they are so afraid of any change that they forget that this is an early access and improving the game should be a concern for both the devs and the players.

As I mentioned above, I believe it's balanced already. You only provided a few statistics, not actual game experience. If I, or anyone already considers it balanced, then changing it would make it unbalanced. It's as simple as that.

I don't have a problem with them adding some setting that could provide a multiplier for skill advancement. They already have a setting that reduces death penalty if that's an issue.