Skill drain upon death

[[G.W.] Sunbro Greg]

Hello folks! Thanks for taking time to read this topic.
Got a question here, but here's a bit of a story first.

I got to a point in the game where you realize the difference the skills bring into the day-to-day basis. For instance, after getting my swords / bows / blocking over 50, I started to notice just how huge the difference is (especially, the latter, for me), compared to lower skill levels. Obviously, it takes quite some time to get there, but it's very rewarding once you do. The story so far is that I was returning back to my base after a pretty long adventure and got stuck in a texture between two trees. Silly me, I thought I could jump through them. While I was grabbing my axe, a troll came... So, I've managed to parry his first strike and while he was recoiling, I started chopping the wood, but then a 2nd troll came. Long story short, I got killed and lost quite a lot of skill points (that I spent hours farming for). Well, death's to be expected when you lose focus, so I just returned, gathered my stuff, took revenge upon the trolls and returned to the base. Fast forward around 15 or so minutes, a friend invited me to join him. So I joined and saw this "the forest is about to screw your stupid crap, moron"; in come the draugur, and then I get killed again (the immunity to skill drain buff was off already). So I've lost hours and hours of skill training in a manner of 30 or so minutes.

I understand that, according to the concept of this genre, death must be punishable in Valheim (sadly, this is my 1st and only survival game that I've ever played), but I cannot begin to express just how much I hate when the game forces you to play additional hours into it. It's like those mini-games in action games that have you hammering a button for 20 times in a quick succession to uhm... open a door or something. Whenever I feel that the game makes such artificial reasons to just return to mind-boggling farming, I... well, I don't think this is a good hallmark.

So, the question so far is: has anyone found a way to stall the skill drain? Maybe there's an item or a skill later in the game that does that? Any way at all? Because this de-incentivizes playes to actually spend time on leveling skills, knowing that the more time they spend on it, the more they will lose in an unfortunate event of their deaths.

Perhaps, it would be better in this case to remove skills from the game in the first place?




EDIT: As for 11th of March, 2021, there is no method to manage the skill drain in game, apart from mods and console commands. Thank you all for participating!

[Evilsod]

Originally posted by Kurtino:

Originally posted by Evilsod:

Have people tried dying less? Or just being more careful/less reckless? Almost every death I've had was due to my own errors/laziness/recklessness.

And 'losing hours of progress'? Wtf? If you're sat somewhere purposely trying to level a skill, I would hazard a guess that you're playing the game wrong. If not, who even thinks of their skills in that sense when you just get them passively through playing?

Whether you focus on the task or not, it's still hours lost if the skill is high enough, and certainly hours every single skill.

Some people care more about completion/progression than others, that's all there is to it really. To be honest there isn't much to this game once you've seen the 4 additional biomes and have crafted all the gear from each metal/zone, killed all 5 bosses, so it's understandable people would be more OCD about the only thing remaining in terms of progression.

No, it's not hours of progress and thinking about it that way is downright stupid.

The last time I died, because I foolishly went into the Plains at night in heavy fog and got mobbed by 3 separate groups of Fulings.
I didn't sit there crying because all that time I spent gathering Wood (which passively levelled my Wood Cutting skill) was suddenly wasted. Because no, I gathered freakin' wood doing it! That was what I went out there to do. That was what I achieved. Levelling the skill happened in the background.

Progression is your items and equipment. Skills are a nice boost. If you're that protective about your skills, then play the game more carefully to protect them.
Coming onto a forum to complain about losing a very small amount of your skills because YOU did something reckless is just ridiculous.

[Kurtino]

Originally posted by Evilsod:

No, it's not hours of progress and thinking about it that way is downright stupid.

The last time I died, because I foolishly went into the Plains at night in heavy fog and got mobbed by 3 separate groups of Fulings.
I didn't sit there crying because all that time I spent gathering Wood (which passively levelled my Wood Cutting skill) was suddenly wasted. Because no, I gathered freakin' wood doing it! That was what I went out there to do. That was what I achieved. Levelling the skill happened in the background.

Progression is your items and equipment. Skills are a nice boost. If you're that protective about your skills, then play the game more carefully to protect them.
Coming onto a forum to complain about losing a very small amount of your skills because YOU did something reckless is just ridiculous.

I don't understand what the debate is. If it takes hours to recover, it takes hours. How can you refute this? Isn't this just objectivity? The only thing you can pick fault with is the time taken being less than an hour, but I can't see anyone able to level, lets say 95 to 100 on all skills, under an hour, without some sort of major exploit. (or console commands/modding)

I'm not discussing semantics here, I'm saying it will literally, quite literally, take hours to regain those skills. Doesn't matter whether you're focusing on the task, or whether it's a passive regain, it's still hours taken. Whatever else you've said about how you feel about the passiveness of skill gain, or being upset about dying, is pointless and on you. How you feel about how you do something isn't something we can measure against someone else, but the objective time taken to perform something within the constraints of the game is.

[Evilsod]

Originally posted by Kurtino:

I don't understand what the debate is. If it takes hours to recover, it takes hours. How can you refute this? Isn't this just objectivity? The only thing you can pick fault with is the time taken being less than an hour, but I can't see anyone able to level, lets say 95 to 100 on all skills, under an hour, without some sort of major exploit. (or console commands/modding)

I'm not discussing semantics here, I'm saying it will literally, quite literally, take hours to regain those skills. Doesn't matter whether you're focusing on the task, or whether it's a passive regain, it's still hours taken. Whatever else you've said about how you feel about the passiveness of skill gain, or being upset about dying, is pointless and on you. How you feel about how you do something isn't something we can measure against someone else, but the objective time taken to perform something within the constraints of the game is.

It's pretty easy to refute it, actually. Semantics have nothing to do with it.

Did you go out to level your Wood Cutting skill, or because you needed to gather Wood?
If it's the former, then wtf? Please explain.
If it's the latter, then you achieved the objective, so your time cannot be wasted.

Did you come back with a full inventory of silver from the Mountain? Did you clear that Fuling Encampment and get some more Flax? Did you find plenty of Deer for their hide? It's a survival game, what reason is there to go anywhere, except to get resources of some kind?

The only time I even think about my skills is when I'm running around with Eikthyr active an I think "Now would be a good opportunity to spam Jump to help level it a little faster".

Die less. End of story. It's entirely on you to stop that happening.

[Mr_Cossack]

Skill drain is what keeps me caring about my life in game at end game. Without it there is nothing to lose. Gear is always safe and i never had any issue recovering it. Personally i think skill loss should be higher on death

[Kurtino]

Originally posted by Evilsod:

It's pretty easy to refute it, actually. Semantics have nothing to do with it.

Did you go out to level your Wood Cutting skill, or because you needed to gather Wood?
If it's the former, then wtf? Please explain.
If it's the latter, then you achieved the objective, so your time cannot be wasted.

Did you come back with a full inventory of silver from the Mountain? Did you clear that Fuling Encampment and get some more Flax? Did you find plenty of Deer for their hide? It's a survival game, what reason is there to go anywhere, except to get resources of some kind?

The only time I even think about my skills is when I'm running around with Eikthyr active an I think "Now would be a good opportunity to spam Jump to help level it a little faster".

Die less. End of story. It's entirely on you to stop that happening.

Listen, I'm not here to argue reality with someone. If you choose to not accept objectivity and the laws of nature then you be you, but that's far beyond my scope on this forum and better suited to a professional.

This mental gymnastics is tiresome. As if you're arguing that, because you don't feel like it takes hours for something to happen because you're not focusing on it/care about it/it's passive actions, you're saying that hours are not taking place. A powerful level of delusion.

[Evilsod]

Originally posted by Kurtino:

Listen, I'm not here to argue reality with someone. If you choose to not accept objectivity and the laws of nature then you be you, but that's far beyond my scope on this forum and better suited to a professional.

This mental gymnastics is tiresome. As if you're arguing that, because you don't feel like it takes hours for something to happen because you're not focusing on it/care about it/it's passive actions, you're saying that hours are not taking place. A powerful level of delusion.

Well, speaking of things that are a waste of time, this conversation would be one.
I don't see things your way, so there must be something wrong with me? How quaint.

You are focused entirely on the concept that because it takes a long time to level a skill, any decrease to it therefore costs hours of your time.
Sorry, but you are just plain wrong. The context is very important and you are completely oblivious to it. If you think that my time gathering wood was somehow wasted because I died and lost some of the skills I gained, then I'm afraid it is you who is delusional.

I doubt you'll get a clue between now and when you respond, so I wouldn't expect any further replies.

[Kurtino]

Originally posted by Evilsod:

Well, speaking of things that are a waste of time, this conversation would be one.
I don't see things your way, so there must be something wrong with me? How quaint.

You are focused entirely on the concept that because it takes a long time to level a skill, any decrease to it therefore costs hours of your time.
Sorry, but you are just plain wrong. The context is very important and you are completely oblivious to it. If you think that my time gathering wood was somehow wasted because I died and lost some of the skills I gained, then I'm afraid it is you who is delusional.

Okay pal.

[[G.W.] Sunbro Greg]

Originally posted by Kurtino:

Originally posted by Evilsod:

Well, speaking of things that are a waste of time, this conversation would be one.
I don't see things your way, so there must be something wrong with me? How quaint.

You are focused entirely on the concept that because it takes a long time to level a skill, any decrease to it therefore costs hours of your time.
Sorry, but you are just plain wrong. The context is very important and you are completely oblivious to it. If you think that my time gathering wood was somehow wasted because I died and lost some of the skills I gained, then I'm afraid it is you who is delusional.

Okay pal.

Kurtino, you're my hero. Thank you so much.

[MightyMouse]

You either find that the skill-loss mechanic detracts from your fun or you don't. It's like arguing whether chocolate or strawberry is the better flavor...entirely subjective. I just wanted the developers to know that it was detracting from my fun and another option would be nice.

[Underprivileged White Male]

Originally posted by Kurtino:

Originally posted by Shad1902:

D2 HC mode player here: riiight, but remember, it was the 90's / eraly 2000's...when snowflakes were only falling in winter....

Anyway, while I don't want a HC mode for Valheim (like, say, don't starve where it's game over if you die....save for a meat effigy with a permament health loss), I find the skill loss nearly negligable.

Dunno why people think the skill loss is brutal... For blocking, you gain 0,5% block per skill level. Loss by dying is 5% . that's hardly "brutal"

What you both fail to recognise when you talk about permadeath, and D2 HC, you're talking about a game that gave you the choice of whether you wanted something or not. If people complained about permadeath when it was optional, then they'd be stupid wouldn't they?

It's not the reality that upsets players, it's the sense of progression no matter how redundant it is. Even if the skill differences don't actually change the game play much, it's annoying to remove that carrot on a stick sense of pointless goals by having it go down drastically, unproportionate to your gain rate. And as you've said yourself, if it is so negligable, why is it so one-sided? If it means nothing you wouldn't be opposed to reducing the penalty, surely?

See I don't even die in the game. Pre 50 hours I had 1 death in this game, it's very simplistic. Mountains I had maybe 4 deaths in total, finding out that wolves spawn in packs during the night with 2 stars and that running out of stamina with a pack on you is near fatal. Plains I had a few more deaths from learning about packs of deathquitos, fulings and surprise 2 star fulings. I've got over 100 hours and played it solo, didn't sit there cowering in my boots preparing the best food and regen pots for almost any of my encounters, and it's honestly not that difficult. Even with my very limited deaths, I instantly recognised the penalty for dying was far too high in comparison to the grind I've put in. I'm sitting at around level 50 for most things after basically finishing the game on my own and I just summoned the final boss again after the patch that buffed him and all over bosses and got instantly obliterated, probably down to the low 40s after that.

You don't have to be bad to recognise weaker design decisions, and being good doesn't mean you accept everything either. You know even the top D2 players have criticisms with the game that they call BS? You wouldn't dare call them snowflakes; should players link their skill levels to validate their opinions in this thread, because it seems to go over people's heads with this binary view of good vs bad players.

Which is why I said we could use server sliders.

Personally I think 5% as the default setting is more than fair. The simple fact is you don't NEED ANY of the skills to finish the game with it's current level of content. Also all of the weapons kills can be quickly regained by just hitting a rock for a bit. It's really quite a mild punishment.

Actually most of the top D2 players I know of are very much in favor of the D2 remake changing as little as possible from the base as they like it the way it is.

Valheim isn't a game that's filled with unfair deaths. Nearly every way to die in the game is a result of your own personal mistakes. I've yet to die due to a random disconnect, a game crash, invisible projectiles, or server lag and I've yet to lose any items or gear as a result of bugs or crashing. I can't say the same for D2. :P

The only enemies you can't run away from are the Mosquitoes and they aren't exactly hard to kill. Most of the time you can simply block them and hit them before they move out of range, or if your timing is a bit better they are pretty easy to parry and kill. Outside of those you can simply bail on every other fight in the game. Deaths are mostly a result of bad prep.

Even compared to something like an old MMO I used to play by the name of The 4th Coming a 5% loss is pretty tame. I remember on T4C being in my mid level 160's and on dialup and being completely unable to advance any further due to the steep death penalty. (The server I was on was set to 25% of your current level XP loss.) To put that in perspective I needed 600,000,000 XP to level and was getting 4,000-12,000 a mob. A death was easily the loss of several days of grinding.

[A Damn Squid]

Nah it should be 5% is fine, if it werent for small things like trees killing you id say bump it to 10%

Its not hard to get skills back, and they dont prevent you from actually doing anything.

sounds like an unfortunate bout you had OP. but sounds fun too, You say the game is forcing you to play additional hours (in this case by spending time regaining lost skills) but really you dont have to do it at all

[BGratz]

Originally posted by Dampback:

Its not hard to get skills back,

Over 200 hundret hours to get all skills back from 95 to 100 i would not name "not hard"

[luponix]

the skill drain makes death actually scary and that in return makes the player think about playing better and prepared. that makes this a game that forces you to engage with its mechanics and different weapons which is one of its best parts.

[MightyMouse]

I play games for fun, and nothing is more fun-killing than the feeling of "running in place"

[The_RaF]

Yep, Skill drain is way to high, imo, running back to your corpse sometimes is punishment enough. at least reduce the skill drain to 1 lvl per dead or something, but 5%?